In this episode, we spice things up with a very public story about a surgeon and a patient’s very private tattoo. ByrdAdatto partner, Medical Justice and eMerit founder Jeff Segal, MD, JD joins us to discuss patient privacy, when HIPAA applies, and unprofessional conduct. You will not want to miss it!
Transcript
Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real world experiences, creating simplicity in 3, 2, 1.
Brad: Welcome back to another episode of Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto with my co-host, Michael Byrd.
Michael: Thanks, Brad! As a business and healthcare law firm, we meet a lot of interesting people and learn their amazing stories. As you know, this season we are spicing things up a bit. We’re here to talk about OPP: Other people’s problems.
Brad: Michael, for those listening for the first time this season, why don’t you tell them what we are doing with OPP?
Michael: We’re going to tell public stories in the news, then conclude with some legal analysis like we usually do that hopefully will be applicable to our audience.
Brad: Yeah, so audience members and Riley, I’m gonna apologize right now in advance. Michael was leading me into what today’s story is gonna be about and [00:01:00] we’re going to have to really control our teenage 14 year old boy selves today, Michael.
Michael: Yes, It’s extra spicy, when I say we’re spicing things up…
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: We’re going to have to be on our best behavior.
Brad: Yes, we’ll probably get an E rating at some point.
Michael: And there may be some editing…
Brad: Yes.
Michael: …that’ll have to happen.
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: I started thinking, Brad, about us having to control our 13 year old sense of humor, and it reminded me of a story I read this week. I read a story about a school district in Missouri that is bringing back spankings. Basically what they said is that if all other disciplinary actions fail, a student can be spanked with a paddle.
Brad: All right, it does feel like we’re having a little going back in time here in the eighties or whatever it was.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, and I had a little PTSD response myself. The parent has to approve the spanking, so I guess that’s the modern [00:02:00] version of it, is the parents have to say they’re okay with it. Once the parents have approved, a teacher can use reasonable physical force on a student, again, if all other disciplinary actions fail. Here’s the lawyer speaking, Brad. Besides reasonable physical force…
Brad: Oh!
Michael: They’re not allowed to give a chance of bodily injury or harm.
Brad: Yeah, reasonable physical force. That really sounds like a lot of lawyer talk there. I’m assuming this leaves the chance for some serious litigation, Michael.
Michael: No doubt. Yeah, here’s a kicker that was even more surprising. I read in this article that corporal punishment is legal in 19 states. Apparently the Supreme Court decided in 1977 that spanking was constitutional, who knew, and allowed each state to set its own rules.
Brad: Yeah! This morning when I woke up, Michael, I really didn’t think I’d have to hear or think about saying [00:03:00] the right to give a spanking is a state right.
Michael: Yep, it is, Brad. This article said that 69,000 children were punished physically in the 2017 to 2018 school year. They didn’t have any more recent data. Probably can blame that on Covid.
Brad: Yeah, and how many of them had the last name, Byrd?
Michael: Oh, such a fair question actually. I have one child who probably contributed to that number. Okay, well, here it is, Brad. Let’s bring it down to you.
Brad: Okay.
Michael: Which I know you love.
Brad: Yeah, I was about to say that’s the best thing for…
Michael: Were you spanked in school growing up?
Brad: You know what? Unlike your school, which I know stories about, my school did not allow spankings. However, I will say that rule actually did not apply in my house. My parents were not afraid to dish out a good spanking and pretty much audience members, I’m quite certain I deserved almost every single one of them. The worst spanking…
Michael: I agree, by the way.
Brad: Yeah, [00:04:00] but the worst spanking I ever received was the one I actually didn’t get and I can’t remember, I was maybe six or seven years old and my mom spanked me and I remember turning around looking at her like, Well, that didn’t hurt, and she’s like, “well just wait till your father gets home.” That’s all she had to say, and the rest of the day I was completely stressed out. I still remember my dad coming home that night, and I remember just dreading to go downstairs, but nothing happened. He never spanked me that day or even the next day, and all I can tell you is my mom is wicked smart because she had some mind game to his playing with me because I behaved the rest of that day, probably the rest of the week, rest of the year, and obviously I’m 50 something years old and it still haunts me, so it worked. How about you, Michael?
Michael: Well, I was thinking I was going to tell you about school, which I will, but just hearing you talk about your parent spankings kind of brought some flashbacks to me on that front as [00:05:00] well. Shocker. My mom was taken lightly as well, and my sister and I used to mock her and she would chase us around the house with a fly swatter and we would be laughing. My dad, that was a different story.
Brad: Oh yeah.
Michael: We were terrified, and my most memorable spanking was when I was, I think five years old and I stole hot wheels from our neighbor, and I mean talk about haunting me. I can go in detail about how that whole scene played out and what even cracks me up more is I don’t think it’ll be the last time we talk about Hot Wheels today.
Brad: No, I think you’re actually foreshadowing to where we are going. So Michael, let’s…
Michael: Well, before we get into the story, Brad, you asked about spankings at school.
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: Yes, yes, we did get spanked at school. In fact, when I was in middle school they were renowned for [00:06:00] the use of the palm leaf.
Brad: Okay?
Michael: Yes, and so, you actually know one of the football coaches, who was a gentleman named, Richard Boak, because his wife worked with us at our old firm, and so you would see one of our other partners, and I start flinching whenever we’d have the Christmas party and we’d see Coach Boak walk in.
Brad: Yes.
Michael: I got the gratuitous ones, so back then there was no parental consent. If you happened to walk by a coach while they were holding the palm leaf, you would get a swat. Our friend and former partner, Oliver…
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: He had much more intentional swats because of some decisions he would make at school.
Brad: Number one, yes. I remember all of this because I remember him still flinching when he walked by the coach. He’s like “Hey, coach!” You could tell sweat was already building up on poor Oliver’s face, but let’s go try to figure this out. [00:07:00] This has to do with what a spanking has to do with today’s story.
Michael: Well, actually Brad, it doesn’t. I don’t remember how I got us down this path. It’s probably your fault.
Brad: Okay.
Michael: We’re actually going to talk about a story of someone who got a tattoo.
Brad: Okay, doesn’t sound very exciting. Tell me what’s going on here. Well, it’s funny cause, nothing against tattoos, as you know, more than half our firm have a tattoo here.
Michael: Yeah. I mean, I promise it’s more interesting than your reaction.
Brad: Okay.
Michael: You’re right, half our office has a tattoo. Even you have the old frat stamp on your ankle.
Brad: Michael, you were not supposed to share personal stuff about me, so please don’t talk about my tattoo.
Michael: Oh.
Brad: Do you have a tattoo?
Michael: I don’t. I don’t have anything against tattoos, but I’m not personally a tattoo person. My two oldest kids and my son-in-law have some ink, so I feel like that at least gives me a little bit of street cred.
Brad: Yeah, it doesn’t, Sorry. No street credit for you. So let me ask, this story has to do [00:08:00] with a crazy face tattoo?
Michael: You’re cold, Brad.
Brad: Oh, neck tattoo that says compliance is cool or CPOM?
Michael: Now those would be awesome tattoos, but that’s not it. You’re getting a little warmer.
Brad: Tramp stamp?
Michael: A little warmer. You were actually closest when we were talking about spankings.
Brad: I have to say, a tattoo on someone’s bottom is not very interesting.
Michael: No, I said you’re close, Brad. Flip it around to the other side of a man’s body to find where this tattoo was placed.
Brad: Yikes, that didn’t sound like a really good idea and does sound extremely painful.
Michael: Yes, Brad, No doubt. I have so many questions about this, but we’re going to have to bring a guest in to help us out…
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: …To tell the story, and so our partner, Jeff Siegel, is joining us today. He is, obviously our friend and our law partner here at ByrdAdatto. Jeff is an [00:09:00] Attorney licensed in the state of California. He is a physician. He went to medical school at the Baylor College of Medicine in Texas and ended up specializing in neurosurgery. Most importantly, at least for college football season, is that he went to undergrad at the University of Texas in Austin, Hook ’em. He is a founder of Medical Justice and e Merit. This is his second time… or is this his third? It’s the second time on the legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. His wife is Shelly. Josh and Jordan are his twin children. Jeff is a cyclist, scuba diver, and climber, and has many amazing stories, including the one we’re going to talk about today and is the first time I heard it was from Jeff.
Brad: Yes.
Michael: Jeff, welcome!
Jeff: Hey, glad to be here with you this morning. Thanks so much. Yes, we do have things to talk about.
Brad: We do, and we’re going to put you on the spot right away. So, Michael shared some [00:10:00] stories, so I’m going to give you a two part question. Hopefully you gimme a two part answer. Do you have a tat? And were you ever spanked at school?
Jeff: Okay, full disclosure, I actually do have a single tattoo. I got it when I turned 50 years old.
Michael: Sweet.
Jeff: Or around that time, so think about that.
Brad: Yeah.
Jeff: And what is it? It’s on my shoulder. It is eulers formula. That’s spelled E U L E R. He was a Swiss mathematician, considered one of the greatest mathematicians of all time, and it is considered by mathematicians to be the most elegant formula in math. It’s E to the power of I pi plus one equals zero. Now I know that means nothing to many of the people in the audience, but fascinatingly, if I have my shirt off at the pool, occasionally another mathematician will come up and go ‘that is so cool”, but I can guarantee you I don’t have data on this, but [00:11:00] I’m pretty sure I’m the only person in North Carolina with that tattoo.
Brad: I’m going to go with fact check, correct!
Michael: Yes, and that is a very Jeff Tattoo. I love it.
Brad: What about spankings at schools? Did they allow that back then?
Jeff: I did get one spanking in high school from the football coach. I’m guessing it was because I was late or I didn’t show up to PE. He probably enjoyed it more than I did because he was a bit of a sadist. Although, I probably deserved it.
Michael: Yeah.
Jeff: Here I am. I actually made it, made it through the trauma.
Michael: I wouldn’t think someone who had a math formula tatted on their shoulder got a lot of spankings.
Jeff: There is some cognitive dissonance there.
Michael: Okay.
Brad: I could go in for an hour on that shoulder tattoo, but let’s keep going forward.
Michael: Yes!
Jeff: Oh, we’re going to come back to that. I want to follow up with a proof of that tattoo.
Michael: Okay.
Jeff: Overtime that’ll take up my entire back. [00:12:00]
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: Sweet, okay, well, we’re going to take a turn to the immature here now.
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: But there is a fascinating story and it actually has some legal implications, so I’ll set it up a little bit for everybody. Today’s story originated in Phoenix, Arizona. We’re going to call our protagonist, Sir Richard, and that’ll reveal itself soon enough as to why that name. Jeff, tell us about the unique tattoo that our protagonist received.
Jeff: So this tattoo had the name “Hot Rod” on it, and it was right, square on the patient’s penis. Now you might ask, how on God’s earth did he get a tattoo there? It’s a decision that most people wouldn’t take lightly. Apparently he was a strip club owner, so that gives you some background, and [00:13:00] he lost a bet.
Brad: So, can I pause you? He didn’t have the mathematical tattoo already?
Jeff: He did not.
Brad: Okay.
Jeff: That’s the best I can tell now. The truth is, to be fair, I don’t know.
Brad: Okay.
Jeff: I don’t know, so all I can do is speculate.
Brad: Okay.
Michael: Okay. Well, I gotta pause for a second too, because that’s pretty crazy. You’re a doctor. We all hear the stories with doctor training. Do you have a story like that from when you were either in practice or going through medical school?
Jeff: So the question is, did weird things happen either in medical school or did we see weird things happen? And the answer is yes. I mean, we see it all the time. Is this a segue for me? Giving you one prototypical example.
Michael: I think we can allow it.
Jeff: Can I share?
Brad: I’ll allow.
Jeff: Can I share?
Brad: Yes.
Jeff: All right, so my first year in practice, I was young and eager, enthusiastic. In the middle of the night, probably 2:00am, 3:00am getting some shuteye. My [00:14:00] pager went off, which dates me, and then the answering service called the ER, and they said, we have an interesting case. I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It’s 3:00am in the morning. By definition, nothing is interesting. Nothing. They said “Well, hear me out”. I said, Okay, I’m on call. I have no choice. So, he said, there was a gay lover’s triangle and one of the individuals was shot through the skull with a bow and arrow.
Michael: Whoa.
Jeff: The arrow entered through the base of the skull, missed the brain, went through the orbit, pushing the globe, the eyeball over, and the patient had 2020 vision. He had this arrow sticking out of his eye, but it didn’t go through his eye, it just kind of pushed everything over. They said, “What do you want us to do?” So meanwhile, my wife [00:15:00] was going, “Oh, tell me more. Tell me more”. She was lying next to me and she heard the initial nothing’s interesting, and she could see that I perked up. Anyway, to fast forward and to bring disclosure, I went to the ER. We did some imaging studies to make sure that the major vascular structures were not pierced by the arrow, and we took this patient to the operating room and did a little more than stick my boot on his face and pull it out and pray.
Brad: Did teach you that in med school?
Jeff: It was sterile technique or pseudo sterile technique and it was a bit more involved, but it did turn out that he did okay. He was such a difficult individual. It became entirely clear why somebody had the motivation to stick an arrow in his head.
Brad: Oh my gosh. Is that in your professional opinion or just as a civilian?
Jeff: As a civilian. I think everybody would agree, this guy was not a [00:16:00] friendly person.
Michael: I can’t decide what hurts more in my imagery, the picture of you pulling that arrow out with your boot or the image of getting “hot rod” tattooed, where to this guy got it tattooed.
Brad: Well, and I think that story that Jeff just gave was a perfect example of Jeff sharing something from the scrub table where doc’s will tell you their funny stories of what happened. I think, Michael, this kind of turned, didn’t it?
Michael: Yeah, and you know, I guess as we shift back to Hot Rod and Sir Richard and the loss of a bet, he, I’m guessing had some sort of connection to nascar. Do you know anything more about the backstory there?
Jeff: All I know, it’s a bet that I would never take. Look, let’s get real. I’m not gonna take a bet, right? If I lose, I have to eat ground glass. I’m not gonna take a bet where I’ve got a [00:17:00] stick cayenne pepper in my eyeball. I’m not going to take a bet where I’m going to get a tattoo of “hot rod” on my penis. If I lose, even if I think the odds are quite high that I’m not going to lose, I still don’t like those odds.
Michael: And this story became something worthy of us talking about, not because of that, but because of what happened next, is that the locker room talk that Brad was alluding to, someone discovered this unique tattoo and felt the need to share it. We’ll refer to this doctor as Dr. Gossip. So Jeff, why don’t you kind of continue the story and tell us what happened after Dr. Gossip saw Sir Richard’s tattoo?
Jeff: Okay, so I need to set it up a little bit more. Dr. Gossip was chief resident of an academic surgical program that’s very famous, or at least, well renowned. They were performing a [00:18:00] laparoscopic cholecystectomy, taking out the gallbladder. Most of the activity was going to be just below the ribs, but the patient had, if I understood correctly, a catheter placed in the penis just to allow for drainage of urine. Actually, I don’t know why this patient had a full length catheter. Typically the case is so short, you probably wouldn’t even put one in, nowadays, but this time, for whatever reason, they put one in. Low and behold, what did they notice? They noticed there was a tattoo of “hot rod” on this patient’s penis. Now remember, all of the action was going to be just below the ribcage, yet now eyes were focused, or at least the chief resident’s eyes were focused on the groin and the moniker, “hot rod”. He snapped a photo…
Brad: He snapped a photo and it just ended there?
Jeff: It did not end there. He snapped a photo, who knows what that [00:19:00] trajectory of the photo was going to be, and the story gets murky, but two of the attending surgeons learned about this, and I’m guessing the photo got transmitted to them. Details are fuzzy, but it didn’t end up on his phone, it ended up on multiple people’s phones or emails or whatever. What happened in the OR didn’t stay in the OR.
Brad: Yes, this is not Vegas.
Michael: I feel like, and I don’t know how much of this is verified, but that the picture actually spread outside of even the confines of this and that it became a national story, is that right?
Jeff: It did become a national story. The patient learned about it, got a telephone call from somebody at the hospital, then the chief resident gets on the phone saying, “I wanted you to hear about this before you heard it in the news”.[00:20:00] He had a chance to come clean and just say what happened. He said he was sorry, had no intent of having the spread. He only told maybe one person, two people, and then when you tell more than one person, sometimes news does get out. Gossip doesn’t stay put particularly a story like this. Of course, the patient was livid. In fact, he said it still burned him up, when he hears about it, and this was well after the fact. This did indeed become a national story. How the public learned of the patient’s name is even more of a mystery. When the story, and this is how I heard it, when the story broke, it described a tattoo, the word “hot rod” on the penis. Apparently there aren’t millions of people in America who have the word “hot rod” tattooed on their penis, and so one person, a [00:21:00] tattoo artist, Said “that’s my work, my handy work”. He may have connected the dots and publicized the patient’s name. It may have been publicized in other ways, I don’t know, but certainly the public is aware of it. It’s in the articles, and then this became a real challenge for the surgeon, who I’m sure intended nothing.
Brad: Yeah. I guess, that’s just a perfect example of the hot rod that… I can’t say it.
Michael: Just move on.
Jeff: Settle down, boys. Settle down.
Michael: Well, he got into some hot water and I believe even the medical board came a calling. We can talk a little bit about that on the other side. I think for Brad’s sake, who seems to be having a hard time over here, we’ll just pause here and [00:22:00] not keep going cause it may take a worse turn. We’ll go into commercial and talk a little bit more about this and dive deeper on kind of some of the legal implications.
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Brad: Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd. We’re still here with our guests and partner, Jeff Siegel, the owner of the coolest tattoo on the shoulder ever heard of by a mathematician. [00:23:00] Now, Michael, this season our theme is OPP, and we just discovered, first off, that Jeff has a tattoo, but secondly, we learned about a very personal and recognizable tattoo that as we were talking about, It became so recognizable because a guy named Howard Stern helped publicize this tattoo itself. I guess that’s not probably a good thing from a legal perspective.
Michael: Yeah, it’s not good. I mean, if you reset telling this through the lens of setting it up for a legal discussion, this patient has a photo taken that is his personal health information.
Brad: Yes.
Michael: That photo ends up going out to one person and going to more than one person, going ultimately to Howard Stern, and then dots are connected because the tattoo artist reveals at some point who this is, and [00:24:00] so all of a sudden this patient who thought they were just getting their gallbladder removed now has the world aware of his lost bet and all the implications of that lost bet. There’s some legal stuff that we gotta talk about.
Brad: Yeah.
Michael: About how that this fun and somewhat painful story actually connects to the law. Let’s talk first about the big law, HIPAA. I think there’s probably a lot of people in the audience that are thinking, that’s gotta violate HIPAA. That’s HIPAA with one p and two a’s for the audience’s sake. Let’s bounce it around and kind of share some thoughts on how HIPAA applies and why it matters. We’ll start with a good doctor, and then, Brad, you can go after Jeff.
Brad: Okay.
Jeff: HIPAA describes how you need to take care of protected health information and not disclose it to [00:25:00] any individuals, unless you have written authorization or less allowed by statute. For most of us, that means if something takes place in the operating room, its protected health information, which means that information cannot be disclosed or shared without the patient’s written permission, without their authorization or unless there’s a statutory exception and we won’t get into what statutory exceptions are because none apply in this situation. Ultimately this is information that should have stayed in the operating room.
Brad: Yeah, completely agree with Jeff. In season three, Michael, of the podcast, we actually had an entire show about how private parts create privacy problems. We didn’t know about Hot Rod back then, but as Jeff said, the whole purpose of HIPAA is the controls that you’re trying to put in place to protect patient’s information and how they use and disclose it. Obviously the primary goal is also to ensure that individual’s health information remains confidential.[00:26:00] The free flow of health information is necessary, and so what HIPAA does is look at what is necessary to provide or promote high quality healthcare and protect the public’s health and wellbeing. As the audience can imagine, in this case, I don’t know of any exception that anyone could say that a medical provider taking picture of a gentleman’s tattoo on his manly part and sharing it is not necessary to provide and promote health quality in healthcare. It’s probably the exact opposite.
Michael: Yeah, and people may be thinking, Okay, well, you know, it’s not like this tattoo said this is the name of the person. There’s something to this, you know, is it identifiable? Whatever it is, the tattoo. Yes, if something’s unique to that person, and that someone would be able to see the photo and know who he was then there’s risk there and obviously the [00:27:00] tattoo artist knew who he was. I’m thinking that if a doctor took a picture of Jeff’s math equation and circulated it, then we could have some HIPAA risk on that front as well.
Brad: Yeah, and Michael, for audience members who are in the aesthetic market or cosmetic market, they might be thinking, Well, I’ve always heard that HIPAA doesn’t really apply to me, but as we’ve said in other times, there are state patient privacy rules that they have to be aware of.
Michael: Yeah, and that’s the bigger thing we have to talk about with our kind of elective medicine clients is that the big picture is patients have privacy rights, And they have them whether HIPAA applies or not. You have to look also at state privacy laws, even if HIPAA doesn’t or does apply, and you have to look at what sort of common law rights does a patient have, as it relates [00:28:00] to violation of their privacy. It can get murky because HIPAA does not create a right for someone to sue, so that’s more of a regulatory. The government comes knocking violations that can lead to fines. Typically the state violations are going to be more fine driven, but you still have the patients’ rights. It could lead to individual litigation and collectively it all ends in the same place, which is the need to protect this information and understand that no matter how funny you are, you think it is, or how much your 13 year old sense of humor gets tickled, it’s a bad idea to go and take a picture of it and send it to your friends.
Brad: Yeah, and I think the other thing is that in this case, if I remember correctly, this person was disciplined. A lot of times [00:29:00] there could be state rules they may have violated, but even if it’s a state, let’s just pretend that taking pictures of someone’s manly parts and sending them to everyone that you want is not a violation of some state rule. Generally speaking, with the boards they have the catchall, which is unethical and unprofessional conduct, and those are the easiest ones for medical boards to wrap their brains around saying, I’m not sure what you did, but what you did was wrong and in this particular case him taking that picture and sending it is obviously an easy one from the say that’s very unprofessional of you as a physician. Now, Jeff, love to hear your final thoughts.
Jeff: Yeah, so it is true that there is a large catchall with the boards of medicine related to unprofessional conduct, and much of it is not defined. It’s similar to how, Justice Potter Stewart, one of the older Supreme Courts, described obscenity, and says, “I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it”. That’s the same with unprofessional conduct, [00:30:00] but I will tell you in Arizona, because I actually downloaded the reprimand. There was a violation of Arizona statute section 32 dash 14 0 1 27 Z. Z means it’s down on the list. It’s one of the last ones, and the violation, the conclusion of law is there are two of them. One is engaging in sexual conduct with a current patient or a former patient within six months after the last medical consultation, unless the patient was a licensee spouse at the time or immediately preceding the patient position Relationship was in a dating or engagement relationship with a licensee for purposes of the subdivision. Sexual conduct includes intentionally viewing a completely or partially this row patient in the course of treatment. If the viewing is not related to patient diagnosis or treatment under current practice standards, what does that [00:31:00] mean, that I just said? It basically means that if you’re operating just under the ribcage and you’re taking pictures, and addressing things related to the groin, arguably it’s not related to the performance of a laparoscopic cholecystectomy. Although, candidly I mean, to be fair this patient did have a full length catheter in place, and you could imagine how if there had been some medical anomaly that required some type of diagnosis or treatment that this section would not have applied, but because of how things played out, I think the Arizona Board felt compelled to act, and the doctor signed in the dotted line, it was a letter reprimand for, and I’m reading here, “for inappropriately photographing and viewing a patient’s penile tattoo”. That was the end of that.
Brad: Michael, as sons of physicians and hanging out with people like Jeff and clients like this, we’ve obviously heard a lot of sad, but for us, funny patient stories. [00:32:00] As medical providers who are listening to this, we’ve been in the rooms where y’all are sharing it with us and yes they are funny, but taking that picture of an identifiable photo, and obviously not having the proper reps and warrants allowing you to do that and posting it either in the worldwide web or just texting to your, your buddies, you’re clearly violating some type of basic privacy, and in Jeff’s case with Arizona, having some rules that you have to abide by, and none of which in this case, obviously, Dr. Gossip even followed by any means. Michael, your final thoughts?
Michael: Between the pain of getting spanked for stealing hot rods and hearing about this tattoo, I think I need some licensed professional counseling to work through this, and I just hope that they don’t recommend exposure therapy.
Brad: All right, Jeff, thanks for joining us today.
Jeff: It was a pleasure, Thanks so much.
Brad: Well, audience members, next Wednesdays show we will actually have to be on really good [00:33:00] behavior because we’ll have an OPP story on the Elizabeth Holmes trial. Michael, we have another lawyer joining us and I think you might know this person because her name is Stephanie Byrd, and I believe that Stephanie is the same Stephanie you’re married to.
Michael: Yes, it is! And not to be told about this episode. Not that she would be surprised.
Outro: Thanks again for joining us today, and remember, if you like this episode, please subscribe. Make sure to give us a five-star rating and share with your friends. You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto Newsletter by going to our website www.byrdadatto.com. ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they [00:34:00] represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.
