As a former undercover police detective in Las Vegas, our guest today is no stranger to dumpster fire stories. In this episode, Michael and Brad are joined by fellow podcast host and entrepreneur Rob Griffin. Tune in to hear Rob’s dumpster fire story and tips to protect yourself from partnering with “bad actors”.

To listen to Rob’s podcasts, BulletProof Mindset by Rob and Dal‪e, visit

Listen to the full episode using the player below, or by visiting one of the links below. Below is the episode’s transcript which has been edited for readability. If you have any questions or would like to learn more, email us at


Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real world experiences. Creating simplicity in three, two, one.

Brad: Welcome back to another episode of Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto with my cohost Michael Bird.

Michael: Thanks Brad. As a business and healthcare law firm, we meet a lot of interesting people. In today’s episode, we’re going to talk with a friend of ours, Rob Griffin. Rob has a fascinating story that I can’t wait to share with our audience.

Brad: Yeah Michael, we’re almost done with season three of the Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto.

Michael: It’s crazy. It’s been flying by. It’s been a blast.

Brad: I know, I know it has been. And this season we’ve had all these great stories, but I’m starting to see this pattern or theme appear in every one of these stories, no matter who tells it.

Michael: Please share, Brad.

Brad: Each time our client is involved in one of these stories, unfortunately they’ve partnered themselves with [00:01:00] a bad actor or a bad guy.

Michael: Yeah. There does always seem to be a bad guy involved in the story.

Brad: Yes, so what do you do when you learn that you’ve partnered with Hans Gruber or Ivan Drago?

Michael: Brad you’re really dating yourself once again, but it does beg the question: is Die Hard a Christmas movie?

Brad: Oh. Yes.

Michael: All right. Good. So for our audience that doesn’t know, we’re talking about Die Hard and Rocky for bad actors, that was Brad’s reference. And as hard as it is to say it out loud, that is a good question. What should you do when you’ve learned you partner with a bad person or you’re in whatever you’re endeavoring, and you’ve come in contact with a bad person?

Brad: I know what a lot of people will end up doing. They call the police. If only, Michael, we could get someone on our show that was a police officer, and maybe could help us identify and ask questions on how do you catch bad guys?

Michael: Well, way to bring it [00:02:00] back to Rob, Brad, way to go. Okay, well, let me introduce our guest more formally. So Rob’s a friend of the firm. He was a police detective in Las Vegas for many years, retired from the police to start his own business, and moved to DFW to grow his business. He started his own podcast: the Rob & Dale Show Bulletproof Mindset. We’ve been a guest on that show. It’s awesome. And they have a massive following.

The show focuses on entrepreneurship and leadership. We’re going to hear a little bit from Rob shortly about a new podcast he’s bringing out, and Rob has graciously helped engineer our podcast today. And when he’s not running his business or doing a podcast or helping us you can find him barbecuing something for the weekend. Rob, welcome.

Rob: That’s right. Thank you so much, guys. It’s so much excitement for me to finally be on the mic with you [00:03:00] instead of just sitting over there, listening to you guys record your podcast. I’m very honored to be here.

Michael: We’re glad to have you.

Brad: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and Rob, as you sat there for the last two years, listening to the Legal 123s, we’ve been behind the mic and obviously you’re the reason why we’ve been sounding so great. So we’re thankful that you’ve been part of that, but we’re excited to also have you behind the mic with us today. And what the audience doesn’t know is, off mic, a lot of the time we’ve had a lot of time to catch up with you, and hear your story. And just gleaming from your parts of the story, we definitely felt like our audience would love to hear yours. So, first off, what made you want to become a police officer?

Rob: It’s actually a funny story. I never thought in a million years I was going to be a police officer. So you might remember this formerly popular company called Blockbuster video. So back in the day, the Blockbuster video card was one of the most carried cards in the United States of America. You guys know that? More so than a social security card. More people had blockbuster cards than they [00:04:00] had their own social security card in their wallet.

Brad: Wow, I can’t believe that.

Rob: But anyway, I was working at blockbuster. I was a manager at a store in Las Vegas, and had an internal problem. One of my employees was stealing from me, and I basically did my own investigation. I gathered videotapes, I interviewed all the staff, got written statements from everyone. And then I called the cops. Once I figured out who it was and the detective shows up and I said, here, man, here are the statements. Here’s the video. I know it’s this guy. And the guy, he starts scratching his head and he’s looking at me and he’s going, Mr. Griffin, have you ever thought about becoming a police officer? I said, no, why would I? He goes well because you might want to check it out. You might have a natural instinct for this. So I went online that night, and a Henderson police department was hiring there, an agency next door to Vegas— another city. And they were hiring, but the position was closing at 5:00 PM the next day. And I had to work at Blockbuster, right? So I go down there and I was in my Blockbuster uniform. If you remember what they looked like, they weren’t the most good looking things.

Michael: Oh yeah.

Rob: And I go down there, I turned in my app. I was applicant number 850. [00:05:00] I remember specifically. And she goes, Hey, Blockbuster, you want to be a police officer? And I was coined a blockbuster from that day on and never thought I was going to make it through the hiring process. You have to take this written exam. I’m sitting in a room with 800 plus people and they all like big, in shape, jar- head looking dudes, and I’m this skinny little Blockbuster guy. And lo and behold, I passed this crazy test and kept passing, kept passing it. You have a lot of people that hate on the cops, but it’s very difficult to be hired to become a police officer. So anyway, I made it through the hiring process, became a police officer. You cut your teeth in patrol where you learn how to be a street cop, basically. And then from there, I was able to transition into a detective in only three years of time, which is really rare.

Michael: Wow. Well, so what was it like? I guess the first part, all those different tests. How long did that take?

Rob: Oh my God. So in the hiring process, the first thing is a written exam. Then you have to do the physical exam [00:06:00] with running pushups, sit ups, and it’s not easy. And they’ve made it easier.

When I went through it, it was hard. It’s physically taxing on your body. And then you have to go through this thing called an oral board, where they basically put you in front of a bunch of cops, and they ask you these pass or fail questions and they give you scenarios. Like one of the scenarios they gave me, they said, okay, Mr. Griffin, you’re being dispatched to a domestic. And you will walk up to an apartment complex. You go up to the door, the doors open, you walk up to the doorway, you see a male laying on the ground with a gunshot wound and you see a female standing across the room with a gun in her hand. She says, I don’t want to live anymore. And points the gun at you. What do you do?

Michael: Wow.

Rob: That’s the question.

Brad: And let me ask you one before they asked you this question, did they give you any backup information or did you read any books about what you were supposed to do? Or this was the one to see what your gut was.

Rob: It’s mostly a gut check. Now, if you had an uncle that was a cop, or a brother that was a cop, they would probably clue you in on this stuff, [00:07:00] but I’m the Blockbuster guy, right?

Brad: You didn’t watch a whole bunch of blockbuster movies before this?

Rob: I did. I watched Die Hard training day. And so anyway, long story short, I apparently I answered right. I said I’d shoot her. And then they try to play with your mind. They go, you would kill the woman? I’m like, well, yeah, she’s pointing a gun at me. She’s already killed her husband. Of course I would, because I want to go home. How about you? And anyway, so apparently that was the correct answer because you’d be amazed at what some people say.

Well, I would try to shoot the gun out of her hand. And if you give any other answer, other than I would shoot her, you’re done because you’ve now failed. And in hindsight, they cannot go through with you and say, well, if you hesitate either your dead or your partner behind you is dead because you didn’t take action immediately.

Michael: Wow. And so tell us about the season of life when you were in patrol. What was that like?

Rob: Oh my God. So patrol is crazy. You know, I’ve seen more dead people than I can count. A lot of people don’t know this [00:08:00] about Las Vegas, but we are the suicide capital of the United States. The top five, we would get a suicide call almost every single day.

And some days we get multiple, and I don’t mean that they died, but they would attempt to kill themselves daily. But we would see a dead person via suicide at least once or twice a week.

Michael: Wow. And did you know that you wanted to transition out of patrol when you got into it?

Rob: Actually, no, I was having a good time being a patrol officer and you guys get to know me. I’m a hard charger. Rob has one speed, and its foot on the gas. And so I’m sitting on the report desk one day, typing reports, which is not fun, it’s kind of like going to the dentist all day long. It just sucks. People come in with these claims that are going nowhere, someone stole my bike. Okay. I’ll take your report, knowing we’re probably never going to find a bike, right? So most of its just paperwork and the detective Sergeant walks by me, because the office is right across from the report desk and he goes, Hey, Griffin, he looks at me. He goes, are you testing for the Bureau? [00:09:00] I said, No, Serge, I’m not. And he goes, you should. And I go, what do you mean? I’m a three-year guy. Like three-year guys don’t make detective that just doesn’t happen. And he goes, I’ve read your reports. You’re very squared away. You do a good investigation and he said, you should test. And so literally I get done with my shift,

I go back in the locker room and I say, Hey, I’m going to test to be detective. And all the guys on my squad are just laughing at me. What are you crazy? You’re a three-year guy. They’re never going to take you. And I said, well, you know, the Sergeant said, maybe I should, and so I put in my paperwork. The test was the following week, I go in there and there were 15 people testing for the Bureau they were taking to. And there were guys that were 10 years on, 15 years on, and I go in there and it’s the same thing. It’s an oral board. They have a whole bunch of detectives in there and they’re basically picking your brain to see how you think. After I’d done my piece, I left by six hours later, and I get an email. They brought us all back. And Mr. Griffin here passed number one, I got selected first. They moved us right in. So like literally I went from the report desk [00:10:00] to a test. And then two weeks later I was a detective.

Michael: Wow.

Brad: And it sounds like you were listening, which is important because between the Blockbuster moment where you never thought you wanted to be a police officer, to the next moment, when you never thought you’d want to be a detective. Which I guess leads us to our next moment, a police officer to detective and for some reason you decide to leave to start your own company?

Rob: Yeah. Well, I had a whole string of tragedies. I’ve actually retired early. I didn’t do a full career. I had 12 years on when I left, and I won’t get into the details, one of my partners committed suicide, which is very common in police work, sadly.

Brad: Yeah.

Rob: And then literally I was at my kid’s birthday party and almost got into a shooting with a gang member who’d recognized me undercover. So I’m at Chucky Cheese, with my son, he was three at the time, and this guy comes in and just starts yelling every expletive you can imagine at the top of his voice in Chucky cheese. I got him at gunpoint, my wife’s running outside calling 911. And these kinds of things happen. [00:11:00] And they just kind of wears on your soul and your married life.

Brad: Yes.

Rob: And then to add icing on the cake, this is about six and a half years ago, one of my good friends was eating pizza at a Cece’s pizza in Las Vegas and some sovereign citizen went in there and murdered him and his partner while they were eating. And that was kind of the final straw for my wife. So we decided to punch out early. I retired early on good terms and I said, let’s move somewhere special. And I Googled, that’s how I got here, by the way, I Googled top 10 cities in America to raise a family.

Five out of the 10 were in North Texas.

Michael: Wow.

Rob: So I said, let’s move to Texas. And that’s how we ended up here. I live in Plano now.

Michael: That’s awesome.

Brad: Well, and so then you get here and you start this company, and tell us what led you to start a podcast?

Rob: Well, let me tell you the company real quick. I didn’t even answer your question. Forgive me. So Survivors the name of the company, and it’s a virtual reality company that trains law enforcement using virtual reality. So imagine you put this headset on and I could put you in an active shooter [00:12:00] event in a high school. I can put you on a call for service. I can put you on a traffic stop. And the way it started was, I met these two young tech geniuses, and they were building VR for people going through physical therapy. And I had never done virtual reality. Have you guys ever tried VR before?

Brad: Yeah, it’s awesome.

Rob: Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. And they put me in this game that they had built where I was in a cave with a bunch of zombies, and I remember almost running through a wall trying to get away from these zombies. And I pull the headset off and I go, my God. I said, could you build a scenario where you put me in a school with an active shooter? I thought, yeah, we can do that. I said, well, man, there’s huge training budgets for police departments. So we got together, we put together some ideas. We entered this idea, which is all it was, into the Big Idea Competition at UT Dallas. They have it every year. It’s called the BIC and we won the whole thing.

Michael: Wow.

Rob: It was 264 entries. We won first place. We won $30,000 in prize money. We use that to bootstrap and build Survivor, which has now got contracts with department of Homeland security, United States, air force, [00:13:00] and multiple police agencies all over the country.

Brad: That’s amazing.

Michael: It is. You just think about everything that’s happening out there right now. And to put myself in the shoes of a police officer, you’re in real-time processing so much information that there’s no way you can train for all the variables that you would face. It seems like this would be a genius way to Improve training.

Rob: No doubt. And you know, there are studies and white pages that have been done that show students will retain 40% more information by training in virtual reality than they will say, in a classroom setting, or if they were to do away with actor based training, which is what typically happens in law enforcement. Because really it’s called focus. There’s no distraction. You are able to literally handle the situation without being distracted by things that are outside of that environment.

Brad: Yeah. And then obviously the impact of it is it’s basically, for those who aren’t familiar with it, literally all you [00:14:00] hear and see is what’s in front of you.

And then some of these virtual reality situations, as you move the wall in front of you is the actual wall in front of you too. So understanding what you’re discussing, you can actually really build that entire platform around that.

Rob: Yeah. And that’s what really gets the cops excited because the way they train now is either in a classroom setting or they have these things called projector based systems where they basically get a big screen and they’re playing a video.

Brad: Yeah.

Rob: It’s basically a shooter, don’t shoot, but it’s not immersive.

Brad: Right.

Rob: And so that’s why VR has a huge advantage. And, ironically, COVID has poured gas on our company, made it accelerate a lot faster because people can’t train the way they used to now because of COVID.

Michael: Wow. Yeah, it makes this yet another example of the tech industry booming. And in this times of COVID

Rob: No doubt about it.

Michael: So somewhere, as Brad was getting to a minute ago, along the way you decided that you also were going to start a podcast

Rob: Again, another great accident happened. I was invited to be a guest on a show just like [00:15:00] this was like three years ago. And I was telling some stories of my undercover days. I mean, I worked vice in Vegas for a couple of years can you imagine the stories I have locked up in here? Never in my career had I thought I’d be getting naked at work, but that actually happened a few times and just crazy stuff. And so I was doing an interview where they were asking me about undercover work and I was telling them some of the crazy stuff I’d seen. And as I was leaving, the producer grabs me. He goes, bro, you need to have your own show. And I said, what am I going to talk about? I’m not a radio guy. I’m just a retired cop who’s in sales, you know? And he goes, man, I was listening to you. I was glued to your every word, you should probably start a show. And I said, okay, now I’m sure it was a sales pitch because I ended up running his studio and producing my show and giving him a whole bunch of my money. As he played to my ego, which works. And so long story short, I started a show and before long I was getting 5,000 downloads a month, 10,000 downloads a month. So I was doing well enough. I just said, you know what, I’m just going to build my own studio. Stop paying this guy the rent. And that’s kinda how we [00:16:00] got started. And so we evolved it. I brought on a cohost. Now, is out there. You can find us real easy and listen to the show.

Michael: And, again, the show is about entrepreneurship and leadership.

Rob: Yeah, it’s all about entrepreneurship, leadership, and overcoming adversity. That’s why we call it the Bulletproof mindset show, because it’s not about what happens to you, it’s how you react to it. And I think that a lot of people out there, there’s so much negativity in the world, we try to be that little piece of bright light and positivity to get people through their day.

Brad: Yeah, absolutely. And you’ve got some really good episodes out there. I know that both Michael and I were excited to be on your show, but have been really enjoying listening to the podcast itself. But, as we went through this process, Michael and I, with starting your own podcast, what were some of the obstacles that you ran into?

Rob: Well, the biggest word here for me was distribution. Because you could have the greatest content in the world, but if no one can find you, then it’s useless. That’s the biggest lesson I learned when I was renting from this [00:17:00] guy’s studio is they were handcuffing my material. Like every time I say, hey, can I get a copy of the show to give to my guests? I have to submit a work order, I can get it to you in two weeks. Well, what if I want to do something different? Can I make my own website and make the content available? They said, no, just send them to our website. And so if you’re a novice out there and you want to build your own podcast, there’s some really good tips I could probably provide for you to save you a lot of time. And distribution is key because if you don’t have that, I don’t have a show.

Brad: And we get vouch for everything Rob just said.

Michael: Yeah. And you figured it out enough that you mentioned to us kind of offline before we started, that you are about to launch another podcast.

Rob: Yeah, I’m so excited about this one. My other show was so good, clean and wholesome. And not that this one’s not going to be, but there’s some topics out there that just need to be said. And I think we’ve gotten to the point now where life is so politically correct that we’re not saying what really needs to be said. And so the name of this new show is going to be called Explicit Lyrics. Not that we’re going to be cursing, that might happen, but that’s not the [00:18:00] goal of the show. The show is to say those things that just need to be said. And so I’m launching it. I have a good friend of mine who is a metropolitan police officer for the Las Vegas Metro. He was a famous UFC fighter. Go Google it, his name is Josh Hanes. He was part of the ultimate fighter back in the early days, he fought Michael Bisbing for the championship. If you guys are fight fans, you’ll know what I’m talking about. The rest of you probably have no clue, but anyway, he was a very successful fighter. And then he left the UFC and became a cop for the Las Vegas Metro, but he was also one of the very first responders at the Mandalay shooting when they had the massacre in Las Vegas. So he pulls up, he was an FTO, which means he’s a field training officer. So he had a trainee in the vehicle with him. They pull up on the right in front of the Mandalay Bay. He gets out of the car, trainee gets out of the car. Immediately the trainee is shot in the shoulder by the high power rifle from the tower. And so instead of saving citizens, he’s now loading his trainee in the car and rushed him straight to Sunrise Hospital.

Michael: Wow.

Rob: Crazy stuff.

Michael: Well, as you know, because you have had a front row seat, this [00:19:00] season on Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto our theme is dumpster fire stories. And in fact, I think the organic idea of you sitting in a different seat for this episode is because you have so many of them. And obviously as an undercover police detective from Vegas, we know you have a lot. Do you have one today that you can share with us?

Rob: Yeah, I wish I could spend three hours with you because I’ve got a lot of content, but we’ll roll it down to one. So remember I told you, I made detective, I had just gotten in as a fledgling detective, you walk in, the secretary literally walked over, brought me a stack of paper that was about a foot and a half high. She goes, here’s your first 30 cases. And it was mostly property crimes and fraud and theft and stuff like that. You have to cut your teeth on the small stuff. My Sergeant comes over. He goes, Hey, Griffin, there’s a whole bunch of angry people at this building over there off of green Valley Parkway. Just go find out what it is. It might be fraud related, so you can probably handle it. Now I’ve been a detective for three months [00:20:00] and they don’t really come in and go, here’s your training class to become a detective. You kind of learned by your baptism by fire. And so I’m driving over there and I’m reading the updates in the call and it’s like a hundred plus people in the lobby, screaming and yelling. That’s all I really heard. And I look at the company, it was some 10 31 exchange and to be full disclosure, I had no clue what that was at the time. And I’m sure you guys do, and I’m sure we’ll talk to the listeners about it. And I pull up into the parking lot. And as soon as I get out of my detective car, they see my gun, they see my badge and like 20 people just come running at me. You got to get us in this building. I’ll never forget this one guy. He must’ve been in his late sixties. He was banging on the door with both fists saying a lot of not- so- pleasant words. And when he saw me, he turned around and started directing those same unpleasant words to me. And I said, listen, sir, I’m just here to help you. I don’t know what’s going on, let’s see if we can find out. And everybody in this huge lobby, very immaculate lobby, by the way, marble, [00:21:00] what you would expect to see at a high end investment corporation.

Michael: Sure.

Rob: And I go over there and I literally put two hands on the glass and look in and the whole place was gutted. Like there wasn’t a desk, there wasn’t a computer, there wasn’t nothing. And the people in the lobby were telling me yesterday that this place was full with employees and everything. Like literally it went from shut the lights off at night, the entire building was gutted overnight, and they were gone. So I called my Sergeant I go, hey Sergeant, I might need a little help on this one. And so we called the FBI. The FBI showed up, great guys. We had a good relationship there because I worked with them on a couple other cases. They are like Griffin, you’re right, this one’s above your head, we’re going to take over. And so long story short, we found out the owner of this had bought the exchange a couple years earlier. From early 2006, until when I got there to investigate this crime, he had embezzled $95 million from these people on a 1031 exchange.

Brad: And then for those audience that don’t know, [00:22:00] a 1031 exchange, that’s basically a tax play in which when you have a piece of property and you sell it, you have a certain timeframe in which you can roll those funds into another real estate deal— and you won’t be taxed on it. So 1031 exchanges, Michael and I probably have a lot of other stories on those, in general, are legal ways in which you can avoid certain taxes on real estate. Very popular in the real estate market. And then these types of companies who help people move funds from a real estate deal to another real estate deal have been around forever, and typically they are legit.

Michael: Yeah this one doesn’t sound like it. Why don’t we go into a commercial and on the other side, Brad and I will spend some additional time with Rob on lessons learned from this dumpster fire.

Access+: Many business owners use legal counsel as a last resort rather than as a proactive tool that can further their success. Why? For most it’s the fear of [00:23:00] unknown legal costs. ByrdAdatto’s Access+ program makes it possible for you to get the ongoing legal assistance you need for one predictable monthly fee that gives you unlimited phone and email access to the legal team so you can receive feedback on legal concerns as they arise. Access+ a smarter, simpler way to access legal services. Find out more. Visit today.

Brad: And welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto with my co-host Michael Byrd. And we’re still here with our special guest, Rob Griffin. Rob, unfortunately, in many of these dumpster fire stories, as we said, there seems to be one element or characteristic that always keeps coming about is these bad guys or bad actors. And I think for our audience today, a lot of times in the second half, Michael and I do a lot of legal analysis, but we thought with your expertise of not only being a trained police officer, but you’ve shared with us that you’ve actually trained cadets when they’re going through [00:24:00] about really looking for tips to share with our audience, determining what certain things that you look for when you’re trying to partner with or enter into a business relationship, is this person has some bad actors to it or is a bad actor.

Rob: Yeah, no doubt. There’s certain things you need to be able to look out for. And this is another funny story for the listeners. So I’m in the detective Bureau. I’ve been there now probably about six months after the 10 31 exchange case. Sergeant walks in, he goes, Hey, Griffin I need you to go down to UNLV and teach a class on lie detection and interview and interrogation, but make it a civilian version. And I go Sarge, civilians don’t interrogate people and he goes, well, just figure it out. I got this professor at UNLV that really wants you to teach this class. And I go, dude, I’ve taken the class. I’ve never taught the class. He says, well call training, they’ll probably help you out. They’ll give you some information. So I call training and I give them the same spiel. He goes, bro, civilians don’t interrogate people. And I go, I know. So anyways, I go home and I [00:25:00] basically create this class and I go teach it at UNLV. This is Wednesday. I had to teach this class Friday morning at 8:00 AM. I go there, I teach the class, and I talked about micro expressions. I’ll give you a little bit of intel on that. It’s how you can read people’s body language. That’s a big piece. And then baselining, that is the number one piece is having to baseline someone, I’ll elaborate here in a second. So I go teach this class. And I’m done, the class loved it. It was a big hit. And as I’m getting ready to walk out there, these two students in the front that were just dressed way too nice. And one comes up to me and she goes, hi, Mr. Griffin, I’m so-and-so with the Las Vegas Sun. Hi, Mr. Griffin. I’m so-and-so with the Las Vegas Weekly, which are the two largest publications in that city. And I’m thinking, oh my God, my career is over. Cause I was in character. I probably dropped the F- bomb about 20 times during this class, and I was going through some of the cases that I had worked. I’m thinking they’re going to destroy me, they’re going to write an article. And in fact, you can [00:26:00] Google it, Interrogation 101 Las Vegas Sun, and you’ll see the article pop up.

Brad: That’s great.

Rob: And it was 90% positive. And so because of that, my sergeant’s phone started ringing off the hook. Hey, can you send that Griffin guy to come teach here? I taught at the Nevada state bar. I taught that police Academy for months on end. After this class, it was something I had just kind of wing together with the help of one of my senior detective friends. And we literally created this class that I ended up teaching probably a hundred times after that.

Michael: That’s amazing.

Rob: Yeah, crazy story. But the whole idea here is to spot deception. You got to use your sixth sense. God gave us a sixth sense. Right? And you ever seen someone you go there’s something creepy about that guy? Something just isn’t right?

Brad: Every single time I look at Michael Bird, I have that thought.

Michael: He paid you to ask that or say that

Rob: I’m just telling you that it’s a real thing. Like it’s innate in our human nature to be able to spot something that just doesn’t feel right. But if you don’t know how to baseline someone first, it doesn’t really mean [00:27:00] a whole lot. So if I were to sit down with Brad, and I was talking to him, before I even begin to ask him a tough question, I need to figure out what normal Brad is like. So in other words, I need to baseline him. So how do I baseline someone? I talk to them for about 15 minutes about something that’s completely non-threatening, and not asking any tough questions. I just say, where did you grow up? How’d you get here? What’s your favorite food? What’d you do two weeks ago? Just get them talking. God gave you a two ears and one mouth, use them accordingly. Right? So I want him talking more than I am. And then what I’m doing is I’m just paying attention. I’m watching his body language. I’m watching his posture. I’m watching his facial expressions. There’s one really cool theory, and you might’ve heard of it, it’s called Sanpaku. It’s called the three whites. So if you look at Brad, look at Michael and look at their eyes, you’ll see white on the left, white on the right. And that’s normal, but when you see three whites, meaning that someone is literally under extreme stress. So with three whites, meaning they can see the white under [00:28:00] the eye. I’m talking extreme stress, I killed my husband and I hid the body, that kind of stress. Not, I stole $10 from Walmart. I’m talking extreme stress. That’s what we call Sanpaku. When you see that, that’s extreme. Right now, if you see the third white on the top, typically that is a reflection of mental illness. Go do a Google search for Helter Skelter. You’ll see what I’m talking about. You know what I’m talking about, right? Charles Manson. That is a perfect example of Sanpaku on the top side. And even Mohamed Atta, when he walked into the airport and he headed up to the gate to go get on that flight, the fated flight that hit the 9-11 tower, the lady behind the security booth said, this guy stared right through me. She didn’t know what she was looking at, but she was staring at Sanpaku and just didn’t know what it was.

Michael: Wow.

Rob: So anyway, if you guys are interested, maybe I could come bring my little line attention course. I’d be happy to teach you and your staff.

Michael: Oh, I love it.

Brad: I love it. I was sitting here thinking, Rob, when you’re talking about it, it sounds like with your virtual reality thing, you [00:29:00] could actually do Interrogation 101’s inside of that when you’re trying to quiz people. So you have unlimited abilities.

Rob: Yeah. So there’s a company out there called VRLU.

It’s Victor Robert Lincoln Union for those cops out there, go to And they actually brought me to Vegas. This is eight months ago and I shot my lie detection course in a virtual reality environment. So you can actually go to You know, if you guys want to get it, I’ll get it for free, but they can actually go watch my course in VR.

Brad: Wow. Awesome.

Rob: Yeah. It’s kind of crazy how God sets things up sometimes.

Brad: Yes. So now we’ve kind of established there are certain things you look for on their body language or their eyes. I know that you can always dive deeper and obviously hire PI or somebody to go further in. Are there any other tricks or thoughts that you would have for someone when there’s that gut reaction, that [00:30:00] one other aspect that you can think of to give someone as a takeaway the day.

Rob: So I would just say, go in there and find out what their normal is. So like I said, baseline is everything. If you don’t have a baseline, because some people go, if I look up into the right, they’re lying. No, that’s not it. You guys watch too much television. Looking up and to right is someone typically recollecting. Like, watch yourself. That’s what we do. That’s a normal thing. That’s a recollection. But like sometimes people do like this. Like whenever I’m teaching my class, I use the video of Bill Clinton when he was being interviewed about Monica Lewinsky. Remember that video? Whenever someone feels threatened, think of it like this, if I were to have a big beach ball, right? And I threw it at you, Michael, and it was a ball that might hurt you, what would you do to stop it?

Michael: Put my hands up.

Rob: Put your hands up, right. So when someone feels like they’re being threatened, they will typically put their hands up in a way to protect themselves. So you ever get in an argument, that is a sign that, hey, you’re trying to hurt me. Or more importantly, I’m trying to hide something. Go away, [00:31:00] go away, go away. Leave me alone. Go back and watch that video. It’s on YouTube. Watch what bill Clinton does. He does a whole lot of this because he was feeling threatened and he knew he had an internal problem going on. He was lying and he knew it, everybody else knew it, but he was trying to hide it because the real lie detector is not an examining machine, it’s not Rob the detective— it’s you. Because when someone has that internal drama, that internal stress, things that your body will do, that you don’t know is happening, it shows up in micro expressions. It shows up in body language. Go do a Google search for the Lie Guy. He’s got a really great material you can find for free online that teaches you about body language and micro-expressions. When you learn what to look for, it’s like they have a neon light on them when they’re being deceptive.

Brad: That’s awesome. I can talk to you all day, and I know we don’t have that much time left, but Michael , what are you some of your [00:32:00] takeaways today?

Michael: Well, I think you know from the experiences that you and I have, Brad, as attorneys and deals, and we see things go wrong. The common thing that we always see is that old adage of too good to be true.

Like they come in and this deal is going to have this amazing return on it, and there’s a lack of information. And I just am processing what Rob just shared on how important it is to get to know the people that you’re going to be doing business with.

Brad: Yes. And that was definitely a takeaway. I was almost verbatim thinking through it and you and I have a trick when I’m trying to get to know someone. I always like to know how they act when they think no one’s watching them to see kind of who they are, see where their character is. And so I guess I can share this because no one’s going to tell anyone about the explaining, but whenever I’m interviewing someone for a job, this is pre- [00:33:00] COVID, I like to take them to lunch. And I like to see how they interact with the waiter, because that tells me so much about a person. In all the years I’ve done it, only once a person failed to follow what I think they need to do. And I hired them, and they turned out to be a terrible hire. And that was the only time I went against my gut on that one. Every single time otherwise, I know I personally believe I know how this person reacts. Cause how you are treating someone when you don’t think anyone’s watching is, I think, is very important as to how they’re going to interact inside your office. Now that’s different than how they are going to be a business person, but that’s why I love your baseline, Rob, that you were describing is get to know the person first on a base so that when you start getting into the business aspects, if all of a sudden their hands are moving, their eyes are going white you know they either lied to me the whole time about who they are as a person. And now they’re lying to us about the business deal.

Michael: I can see three whites on you right now, Brad.

Rob: Yeah, so Sanpaku is very rare. The more common stuff [00:34:00] would be body language, micro expressions in the face, those types of things. And the thing we call self-cleansing. Do you ever notice people who do a lot of that?

Brad: Yeah.

Rob: Wiping their face or wringing their hands. That is another again, not a sign by itself of deception, but of stress. And so that internal stress means I’m hiding something. And so it may not necessarily mean they’re lying, but it can certainly guide your investigation.

Brad: That’s awesome. Well, Rob, thank you so much for being on Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto today. I have one final question for you before you leave. What are you cooking this weekend?

Rob: I have some pork loin with the rib attached, and I will be smoking it all weekend long. So if you want me to bring a sample next week, I’ll be happy.

Brad: So awesome. Well, thanks again, Rob.

Rob: It was a real pleasure guys. Thanks again.

Michael: Thank you.

Brad: All right, well, please join us next Wednesday when we discuss When Private Parts Create a Privacy Issue. Until next week.

Outro: Thanks again for joining us today and remember, if you liked this episode, please subscribe, make sure to give us a five star rating and share with your friends. You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes [00:35:00] only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.

ByrdAdatto founding partner Michael Byrd

Michael S. Byrd

As the son of a doctor and entrepreneur, ByrdAdatto attorney Michael S. Byrd has a personal connection to both business and medicine.

More Great Content