Employee handbooks are more than just paperwork, they are a strategic tool for protecting your practice and aligning your team. In this episode, ByrdAdatto’s newest partner, Grace Lee, breaks down how to create employee handbooks that actually work for medical practices. Discover why generic templates can put you at risk and how to handle PTO, harassment and remote work policies. Tune in to protect your practice, align your team, and reduce costly employment disputes.
Listen to the full episode using the player below, or by visiting one of the links below. Contact ByrdAdatto if you have any questions or would like to learn more.
Transcript
*The below transcript has been edited for readability.
Intro: [00:01] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real-world experiences, creating simplicity in three, two, one.
Brad: [00:13] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd.
Michael: [00:20] As business attorneys for health care practices, we meet a lot of interesting people and learn their amazing stories. Brad, this season’s theme is The Business Of Medicine Today. Gone are the days of Grandpa’s medical practice. No, we’re not talking about you, Grandpa. With paper charts and old-school treatments, we will confront the business and health care issues faced by the modern medical practice.
Brad: [00:43] Well, Michael, I’m really excited. For those in TV land, notice there’s someone sitting here. One of our newest partner at ByrdAdatto will be joining us today.
Michael: [00:51] Me too, Brad. I’ve gotten to be her mentor, so I’m extra proud of her, and I did notice, Brad, that you were not the mentor to either of our two new partners, and I’m not saying there’s a connection here, but I’m not saying it either.
Brad: [01:08] Well, I did mentor that guy who’s a series regular and our CFO, Jay Reyero, so I guess I did okay with that one. But let’s switch off mentor talk for a second, and I want to get back into mascot talk again.
Michael: [01:24] I’ll get to that in a minute, but let’s be clear, Jay mentored you even when you were supposedly his mentor.
Brad: [01:31] This is true, audience.
Michael: [01:31] Yeah.
Brad: [01:32] This is true.
Michael: [01:35] Did you just say mascot talk again? I feel like you’re doing it just to poke at me now. You actually are doing it more than movie talk now.
Brad: [01:45] So what I’m hearing now is you want more movie talk?
Michael: [01:48] At this point, I might. I can’t believe I’m saying that out loud, but I know I can’t stop you. And I know you don’t really care about retaining listeners anyway, so go do your little mascot thing again.
Brad: [02:02] All right, Michael, quick question: Have you ever dreamed about being a mascot?
Michael: [02:08] I mean, I might have had a nightmare about it, but I don’t think a dream in the sense you’re talking about it. I lack both the interest and the ability to ever think about being a mascot.
Brad: [02:19] I mean, I think you’d be a great mascot. I mean, you have this very serious face. You could be like the silent judgy lion. You’re standing around all day as a lawyer, so you’d be a perfect mascot.
Michael: [02:31] Well, that judgment kind of vibe you’re getting is just me judging you for your mascot talk. But I don’t think mascots just stand around, Brad. I think they do, you know, flips and dunks and stunts and stuff like that.
Brad: [02:45] Yeah, which brings us to today’s little story. Denver’s beloved mascot, Rocky the Mountain Lion, Hall of Fame mascot, mind you, just traded his pom-poms in for subpoenas. The guy inside the Rocky costume, who also inherited the job from his dad, so I guess it’s a family tradition in that family to be mascots, but after years of acrobats, he needed a hip replacement, and instead of cheering him on, the Nuggets allegedly showed him the door.
Michael: [03:13] You said subpoenas, so is he suing the team, Brad?
Brad: [03:16] Oh, yeah. A hostile work environment, disability discrimination, the whole legal buffet of things that you can put in your lawsuit. And get this, while he was recovering from surgery, they actually held tryouts to replace him. It’s pretty cold. Like they said, “Thanks for the flips, but flip out of here.”
Michael: [03:33] Well, I guess it sounds like the whole family loyalty thing does have limits.
Brad: [03:37] Yeah, and so now he’s hoping to take justice to the court, which makes me wonder, Michael, if you were a mascot, would your being name be, like, the Legal Eagle or maybe Byrdman?
Michael: [03:48] I don’t know, maybe the Typing Tornado.
Brad: [03:54] All right. Well, no matter what your name you select, I think when we, when we take a step back, you know, if you were going to be a mascot, you’d probably be the first one ever to say, “What’s the employee handbook look like?” before you do any cartwheels. And after hearing Rocky’s story, I think we might need to better understand employee handbooks in general. What do you think, Michael?
Michael: [04:12] I think you’re trying really hard to land the plane to get to today’s topic. But I will, I will bring on our guest today, our newest partner. Grace Lee is joining us, so a little stats about Grace: She is a partner at ByrdAdatto. She went to undergrad at University of Oklahoma, and I have not held that against her. She has a BBA from there. She went to law school at SMU. Before law school, she actually, had a career in finance at a Fortune 500 investment bank. Honors that she’s received already are, she’s been selected to Best Lawyers, Ones to Watch in Health care. She’s been selected to the Texas Rising Stars List by Thomson Reuters and the D Magazine’s Best Lawyers Under 40 list. Grace is a member of the Dallas Bar Association Health Law Section, the, Dallas Association of Young Lawyers Animal Welfare Committee, the Dallas Asian American Bar Association, and outside of work, Grace loves traveling and creating memories with friends and family. Grace, thank you for being here.
Grace: [05:26] Thanks for inviting me.
Brad: [05:28] Well, Grace, we’re going to hit you with a very important question right up front: Have you ever had an interest of being a mascot?
Grace: [05:34] I’m going to have to say no on that one. No
Brad: [05:37] Not interested at all? Okay.
Grace: [05:39] I mean, I wish I could, but oh God, the acrobats?
Brad: [05:43] No, not for you.
Michael: [05:44] Not something that people dream of, except Brad, apparently. All right, well, let’s get into it. I guess, for starters, I’d love just for you to introduce yourself a little more to the audience, anything I didn’t cover on your bio, and yeah, love to hear from you.
Grace: [06:04] Yeah, well, thanks for having me. So, yeah, I’m Grace. Honestly, like, since that bio was written, a lot has changed. The biggest one being that I am a mother now to a 14-month-old. I mean, cutest thing. Honestly, outside of work, it’s just me trying to navigate motherhood, I think. So really, that’s all my life has been. It’s hard, but, I’m loving it.
Michael: [06:35] Awesome.
Brad: [06:36] Well, Grace, this season, our theme is The Business Of Medicine Today, and one of the hot topics in the business of medicine, happens to center around employees. And, there’s always a risk reward with having employees, and in general, talk about, we said it earlier, but what is an employee handbook?
Grace: [06:56] An employee handbook. It’s really just like a set of policies, like guidelines, right? It helps set expectations for both the employee and employer on how to, operate the workplace.
Brad: [07:11] So it’s, when you say that, is it a whole bunch of documents put together, or is it one document itself?
Grace: [07:17] It’s usually one large document with a bunch of policies in it. Of course, you can have, like, supplements to it, amendments to it, as time goes on. Like, you do want to go back to the employee handbook, make sure that everything in there, the policies, are still compliant with laws and stuff. And so when you do make changes to be compliant with new laws, then yeah, it would be like a separate agreement… not agreement, but a separate, like, supplement. But usually it’s one large, like, PDF.
Michael: [07:44] At what point when a practice, you know, when they start having employees, do you recommend that they consider adopting a handbook?
Grace: [07:55] Oh at the very beginning. It, it sets the tone for everybody. Like I said before, expectations, right? It really helps set the tone for the employees, knowing what to expect. I mean, these policies we’re talking about, it’s with regards to like leave, PTO, conduct, maybe drug and abuse, alcohol, like all the different things that, we as people encounter at the workplace, that a handbook would have.
Michael: [08:25] Yeah, talk a little bit about one in particular. You talked about leave or PTO, and, and that can get super confusing, right? Because, you hear of people that have PTO, or they have vacation and sick leave. You have, sometimes states and even local governments that dictate amount of sick leave you have to give. So talk about kind of the thinking that goes into, you know, creating those expectations on what leave would look like.
Grace: [09:00] Yep. So yeah, that, that’s a great question. With leave, uh, and like PTO, sick leave, federal, state, county, city, they all have their own sets of like, laws and regulations, rules, with regards to even – say, upon separation of employment. Like, do employees get to keep, their unpaid or not, yeah, unpaid, accrued, say, sick leave or PTO? That is something that a lot of times laws will speak on, and if they have to get paid out, then employers, have to know that ahead of time and pay them out. Other things, you know, depending on the number of employees that you have, trigger certain laws as well, and so that’s also something you’d want to consider.
Brad: [09:43] Well, on the very first day when someone walks in, do you actually show them the employee handbook, or you just kind of hide it in the back?
Grace: [09:51] You want to show them the employee handbook because it has so many things that, employees actually do wonder about. Say, for example, like, technology or like social media, like what are the parameters? Like, what can they do? What can they post about, like, the practice, about, like, their, patients, like before and after pictures? All of those things are in the employee handbook, so it’s a great onboarding tool.
Brad: [10:13] Yeah, so point being is that it’s not something hidden in, on some shelf that no one knows about.
Grace: [10:18] Yeah, no. Actually, A good employee handbook has like an acknowledgment at the end, where the employees are like signing, saying like: “Yes, I have received this employee handbook, and yes, I have read it and understand it. I have asked all the questions I needed to ask.” And so, and then they sign off.
Brad: [10:35] So an employee handbook, is that going to also deal with, like, harassment, discrimination, workplace safety?
Grace: [10:41] Absolutely. So one of the most, common complaints from employees are being treated unequally, right? With this unequal treatment claims. And a lot of times, one of the first lines of defense is an employee handbook. The employer then can go in and say: “No, I didn’t treat this employee unequally based on, like, a protected characteristic,” say, like based on their race or religion, gender, disability. “But instead, I did follow company policy per this employee handbook. There was a, say, like a violation, right? And so per the policy, we followed the procedure, and so this employment after this demotion or whatever it may be, termination, had occurred for that reason.”
Brad: [11:25] So it sounds like just having the employee handbook’s important, but then following your actual substance behind it is critical.
Grace: [11:32] Absolutely, like with any document, form, and substance, right? So yeah. Having an employee handbook, great first step. Second step is to follow it. And that’s why the legal protections with around employee handbooks work both ways. It protects employees, but it also protects employers because now they know what they need to do per the policy.
Brad: [11:55] So Rocky, the mountain lion, if he’s listening, he’s, he’s hoping they weren’t following their policies.
Grace: [12:00] Right. Right.
Brad: [12:03] And one of the other things, just to kind of paint for our audience the level of kind of robust thought that goes into these is, you also will have policies about use of technology, whether it’s, you know, the bring your own device type thing and personal use. And so I think the overall theme I’m picking up from you is that there, on one hand, is an alignment concept of getting everybody on the same page as to what expectations are.
Grace: [12:41] Yes, absolutely.
Michael: [12:43] And then the other side of it is the protective nature, which you mentioned just a moment ago. So, you know, one of the common questions we receive, and you’ve probably receive even more than Brad and I do, is: you know, what legal protection does a handbook offer for a medical practice?
Grace: [13:00] Yes. So it’s those two points, right? First of all, being that the policy is drafted in a way that is compliant with whatever applicable laws that you’re subject to. That’s the first one. The second one is following through and actually, um, applying it as it’s written.
Michael: [13:15] And so a lot of our clients… I’ll use the, you know, some sort of workplace allegation, like harassment. A lot of our practices are small, right? So you may have the owner of the practice also be, you know, the doctor and also be the president, and you also, like any business, can have drama. And so talk a little bit about how it’s protective for the employer in the sense that, you know, if you have someone that makes a claim of harassment, by having a process, that you’ll go through in the handbook, how does that protect the employer to do that?
Grace: [13:58] There’s a big preemptive piece to this as well, because, when having a policy, the policy will first, like, define, like, tell the employees what harassment is, like, what the harassment looks like, and it’ll describe it, right? So, like, the nature of harassment. The employees will read that and be like: “Okay, so this is what is considered, like, harassment at this workplace.” That’s the first step, right? And then what happens is that throughout the policy, it explains, if someone feels harassed, how do they report? Who do they report to? If the harasser is, like, their manager, then in that case, who do they report to? So they have a clear, procedures in place with regards to the reporting. And then after that, at towards the end of the policy in this handbook, they usually have a, “This is what an investigation looks like. And upon the investigation, this is what the results, and this is, this is what you should be expecting to happen.”
Michael: [14:56] And so then, kind of taking it a step further, another example, you, talked about, you know, what do we do with, you know, PTO, and when someone leaves. And so let’s pretend where you had mentioned some states or laws will require you to pay for unused PTO. But let’s say, for example, we’re in a state that doesn’t or a city that doesn’t have that type of requirement, and you have a terminated employee that comes back and says, “I haven’t taken vacation in two years. I want to be paid, you know, for my unused PTO.” Talk about the protection that that handbook can provide if you have that policy clearly in there.
Grace: [15:45] Oh, yes, because that’s an expectation, right? So, for, like, that specific example, usually the PTO policy in that case would have a statement saying that any unused PTO will be forfeited upon termination, and with that, it is enough to be able to, you know, push back on that employee and be like, “You know, per company policy, like, you knew this too. You signed off on this. You don’t, you don’t get this payout.”
Michael: [16:09] Is it important, and this is along the form and substance lines, that historically, the company actually follows the policy? So if they’ve been paying out PTO, even though their policy says they don’t, does that create risk for them?
Grace: [16:24] That absolutely creates risk.
Michael: [16:26] Okay.
Grace: [16:26] Now you’ve created a pattern. And you know somebody could go in and be like: “No, this is the actual policy, not what’s written here, because no one follows this. This is what’s happening. This is the pattern, this is the policy.” And so that is definitely an argument that can be made by the employee.
Michael: [16:40] So a policy doesn’t always have to be written?
Grace: [16:44] So there should be a written policy in place-
Michael: [16:46] Okay, yeah
Grace: [16:46] … and you should follow that written policy. If you go away from it and do something else, then, you know, then we have a risk, then we have exposure.
Brad: [16:53] Brad has not been listening.
Brad: [16:56] I was asleep most of it. I was thinking about poor Rocky the Mountain Lion. All right, so I have a follow-up question. You said this earlier, and you know, a lot of our audience members are in the medical world, having medical practices or med spas or wellness clinics, and are there anything, you said maybe before and after pictures, but are there other unique areas that a medical practice should be considering in their employee handbook?
Grace: [17:18] I would say confidentiality. That’s a big one. So with our clients, we usually have a robust confidentiality section, making sure that the employees know, like, there’s HIPAAs. I mean, there’s, you know, patient confidential medical records, information that has to maintain confidentiality, so that is very much spelled out.
Brad: [17:37] And on before and after pictures, what’s your thoughts in a medical handbook about their staff taking pictures with their own phones versus, you know, using the, the cameras of the business?
Grace: [17:49] Yeah, that’s also something that’s spelled out, in the, policies as well. So technology, using, like, iPads, you know, phones, like, don’t use your own phones. You know, these are medical records that need to be maintained within the internal system of the practice.
Brad: [18:03] What would be the concern? So if, uh, someone’s listening right now, and they don’t have an employee handbook, what kind of exposure do they have?
Grace: [18:11 ]I mean, the exposure would be the legal risks, the legal exposures. Yeah, so not having a written policy or written employee handbooks in place makes it so that a lot of the managers, disciplinary actions or whatever they might do, is based on a subjective, inconsistent, maybe personal standard, right? And so, like, if you don’t have that consistency across the board with all of the employees based on this written policy, then that just– I mean, an employee can come, come in and be like: “Hey, you know what? Like, this person wasn’t disciplined for this action, but why am I being disciplined? Is it because of my protected class?” And so once again, we’re going back into lawsuits, discrimination claims.
Brad: [18:54] If someone has an employee handbook and they haven’t looked at it in a couple of years, what would you recommend they do?
Grace: [19:00] I would definitely recommend them to come to us and have us review them. I mean, with laws, they’re being constantly updated, right? There’s constant bills, getting out there, you know, getting passed, and so maybe just, like, even an annual review of your employee handbook would be great.
Brad: [19:15] Yeah. And so those who don’t have one, it’s not the end of the world, but maybe they should probably get with an attorney and get one.
Grace: [19:23] Absolutely.
Brad: [19:24] Yeah.
Michael: [19:24] And I would even add to your point, like, a trigger point is if they scale and they go to a different state or even to a different city, that should be on their list of, you know, what updates to the handbook do they need to make.
Grace: [19:38] Yes, absolutely. Because a lot of times where the employee resides, so if they’re, you know, like remote employees, right? You want to follow the labor and employment laws in where they live. So when, you know, our clients scale and, like, expand to the other states, we have addendums that we add to their employee handbook, specific to those employees in those states.
Michael: [19:57] I’m just having flashbacks to COVID, where we were learning of people allowing their employees to work from states all over the country and not appreciating the risk they were taking.
Grace: [20:10]Right. Right.
Brad: [20:11] Speaking of work from home then, if you do allow your employees to work from home, is that something that should be in the employee handbook, and what does that look like?
Grace: [20:18] It would be a work from home policy, making sure that you know, what is expected when an employee is working from home. So whatever that you think of, you know, as an employer, you would want to have. It’s, it’s all about expectations.
Brad: [20:32] Yeah. Can you, for our audience who’s now curious, because maybe they do have people working from home, what are, like, top two or three things to think about inside of that policy?
Grace: [20:43] Going back to, like, confidentiality, you know, there’s a lot of proprietary information, like, if you have, like, a laptop, right? For example, so if you are, you know, in a house with other people, and you have your laptop out, and there’s confidential information on the screen, maybe like having that workplace policy or work from home policy saying: “Hey, like, anytime you leave the room or something, you know, please turn your screen off,” or something along those lines just to protect information.
Brad: [21:12] And if someone’s working from home and they’re… We didn’t get into exempt versus non-exempt, but do those people still have to log in? And, if they’re, you know… Like, how does that work if, if they’re working from home? Can they just log in whenever they want if they’re non-exempt?
Grace: [21:29] If they’re non-exempt, do they log in whenever they want?
Brad: [21:31] Yeah.
Grace: [21:32] I mean, it would be the same as if they were working in the office. So if they have a clock in, clock out system, then it would be the same thing.
Brad: [21:40] Okay. So they can’t at three o’clock in the morning, get up and start working and then call it a day at six a.m. or something?
Grace: [21:46] No, they would have to do it during business hours.
Brad: [21:48] Okay. Yeah, look, I mean, yeah, I just don’t know these things, and so I’m learning.
Michael: [21:52] I want to shift back to kind of what this actually looks like for a practice to add a handbook. And I’m asking this because of what we see commonly happen, is, as a mistake, is they have a handbook, and, you know, sometimes they get these from the internet, and they don’t even know what’s in it. And, and it becomes kind of a checklist, and they just, they do present it to their, their team when they get hired, and they, and they get the sign, get them to sign off. But talk about what are some best practices that, that a business can do in the onboarding process and training process to kind of bring to life the handbook for an employee?
Grace: [22:38] I mean, going through the most important parts, what the employer believes is the most important parts of the employee handbook, like going through that with them during the onboarding process. One of the things I’ve noticed when, you know, reviewing employee handbooks, sometimes they’ll have this, like, broad phrasing like, you know, “Employer will do this, according to state law.” And you know, that’s great. Like, on paper, it’s fine, right? There’s nothing wrong with it. But then in practice, like, what does that actually mean? So in practice, and like, say, a supervisor would then have to go, you know, go into, like, go look for the state law, right? Or, like, go look for whichever local regulations, federal law that they believe that would be applicable in that situation, and it just gets really messy, and they might even be looking at old law. Like, you know, you don’t know, right? So honestly, best practice, I think, in this case, would be to have, like, it spelled out… what that state law may be, for that situation in that policy, and then just revisit it every year and making sure that it’s updated.
Michael: [23:38] What’s your view, and this is maybe getting a little too technical, but, I mean, we know we have a handbook, and then new policies will come up or changes will come up. Um, how, how do you recommend for our clients to do that? Do they amend the handbook each time, or can they just do kind of separate policies for whatever it is that they’re adopting?
Grace: [24:01] Yeah, like a standalone document usually is enough. I wouldn’t say you need to, like, do a whole amended and restated of, the employee handbook itself. It’s just like, because like, yeah, there are updates to the law, but it’s because the employee handbook is so comprehensive, there’s not going to be an update to every single policy every single time. So whichever policy is specifically needs being updated, then, like, that would have the standalone document.
Michael: [24:24] So the important part is not this idea of a handbook itself, but having a policy in writing.
Grace: [24:31] Right. Right.
Brad: [24:32] And that the employees know about it.
Grace: [24:34] Oh, yes, please.
Michael: [24:37] Yes. And form and substance.
Brad: [24:38] And form and substance.
Michael: [24:40] Other than that?
Brad: [24:41] That’s fine.
Michael: [24:41] Yeah. Do you have any more questions?
Brad: [24:44] I mean, the last question I had really was kind of revolving back to someone sitting here and now is panicking because they don’t have an employee handbook, as far as the stages, and they’re like: “Okay, I’m going to go hire a lawyer.” Does it just happen overnight? Like, what’s the typical process that someone’s going to go through to go from zero to having something they can hand to their employees?
Grace: [25:04] So, like, whenever a client of ours, like, you know, comes up to me and asks for an employee handbook, one of the first things I’ll do is just, like, jump on a call with them and try to, like, kind of figure out, like, their overall sense of their operations. I’ll ask a few questions. A lot of times, you know, it’s like, “How many employees do you have?” Because that is a big question. Sometimes laws don’t get triggered if you don’t have a certain number of employees. So I’ll usually just have, like, a list of questions to ask them and then start there, and then I’ll kind of provide them with, like, an initial draft, and then we’ll just… It’s a lot of back and forth. It’s a lot of communications, because, like, a lot of times it’s like: “Hey, here’s a proposed policy. What do you think?” And they’ll be like: “Oh, well, that’s not how we actually operate.” And then we’ll have that conversation. We’ll make the adjustments, and it takes, you know, it takes a little bit, but it’s definitely worth it.
Brad: [25:50] Which is key, is what you just hit, which is, like, to Michael’s point earlier, if you just download something off the internet, and that’s truly not how you operate, you’re actually probably handcuffing yourself or making it worse because now you have a policy that you’re not following.
Grace: [26:03] Exactly.
Michael: [26:04] Well, time flew by, Grace. Thank you for joining us on the Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. We’re grateful for you and grateful that you’re our partner now. We’ll go to break, and Brad and I will come back with a few legal insights. Thank you.
Grace: [26:19] Thank you.
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Brad: [26:55] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd. Now, Michael and audience members, this season, the theme is “The Practice of Medicine Today.” We just had an amazing conversation with our, our newest partner, Grace Lee, about employee handbooks. I learned a lot today, Michael. I didn’t even know that they existed before today.
Michael: [27:18] That’s the least surprising thing you’ve said today. Yeah, and I think that if there’s one takeaway from it is, there’s a couple things… Well, not just one takeaway, but one big idea is that they’re important.
Brad: [27:36] Yes.
Michael: [27:36] We got that.
Brad: [27:36] I got that, too.
Michael: [27:37] And that they both minimize the likelihood of you having employee conflict because of the alignment you create by setting boundaries and expectations, and they’re protective in the case that you ever do have an issue. Uh, but the kind of counterbalance to that is that they have to be intentional.
Brad: [28:01] Yeah.
Michael: [28:03] There’s a lot, it’s a collaborative process. I heard that come from Grace when she was talking about building it out, and it’s not as simple as, you know, printing something from the internet. You even said, you know, that actually could make things worse, which is true. You just print something that’s not actually your policy, and you’re setting yourself up for failure. And so the commitment to get this protection is that investment in the process to build the process, the collaborative nature of really thinking through each of the items that your attorney would guide you through to make sure that, you have those things in place.
Brad: [28:42] Yeah, and that’s the point, and this is where you’re going, is understanding your vision is important, understanding how you do things is important, and then the last thing is, what do you have to do based on your state law? So those three things come together in a really good… And I think to your point, it is having those conversations with your attorney to make sure they’re giving you the right employee handbook or collection of policies and procedures that you’re putting together so that you, as an owner and, practice owner, knows what’s going on, and your employees know. So you’re actually just setting those expectations for everyone now. But believe it or not, Michael, we are out of time, so we are back again next Wednesday, when we continue to understand the practice of medicine today. We’re going to discuss an interesting area that’s happening right now, is the friction that’s happening with independent nurse practitioners in states with strong corporate practice of medicine laws.
Brad: [29:36] Thanks again for joining us today, and remember, if you liked this episode, please subscribe. Make sure to give us a five-star rating and share with your friends.
Michael: [29:44] You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website at byrdadatto.com.
Outro: [29:50]ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney-client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.
