Adding a business partner can feel like the obvious next step when your practice is growing, but what happens when growth creates challenges in how decisions get made? In this episode, hosts Brad and Michael share the story of a successful physician who brought on a second doctor to help scale the business, only to run into unexpected challenges due to unclear expectations and misalignment. Tune in to learn why adding a partner is more than a legal transaction, how setting clear expectations and decision-making guidelines can help prevent conflict, and what practice owners should consider before sharing ownership.
Listen to the full episode using the player below, or by visiting one of the links below. Contact ByrdAdatto if you have any questions or would like to learn more.
Transcript
*The below transcript has been edited for readability.
Intro: [00:00] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real-world experiences, creating simplicity in three, two, one.
Michael: [00:13] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host Michael Byrd. As business attorneys for health care practices, we meet a lot of interesting people and learn their amazing stories. This season’s theme is What Now? Each episode will involve a real client story with a high-pressure moment for that practice.
Brad: [00:47I] So Michael, before we even get into today’s topic, a very important, deeply important question for you.
Michael: [00:55] You said important twice, and when you do that, I can usually predict that it’s not only going to be not important, but not doubly important.
Brad: [01:07] All right. What is your take on vending machines in general?
Michael: [01:13] Well, first, Your Honor, I rest my case. I don’t mean anything important by that, but in general, my take on vending machines is it doesn’t really move the needle for me one way or another. They exist, and I have used them.
Brad: [01:29] Since you’ve used them, how often do you use vending machines?
Michael: [01:35] Pretty rarely. It’s not a part of my normal, but there could be an occasion where I’m thirsty and need a drink or, even more rarely, maybe a snack. But yeah, it’s not a common part of my every day.
Brad: [01:52] I would agree with you that I’ve rarely, if ever, used a vending machine.
Michael: [01:59] You said ever?
Brad: [02:01] Yes.
Michael: [02:01] Okay.
Brad: [02:02] Rarely. Rarely. I’m standing. If I’m standing in front of a vending machine, Michael, and I need something from that vending machine, something has gone terribly wrong in my life.
Michael: [02:11] Okay. Well, that tracks with what I know about you and your preparedness for food.
Brad: [02:20] It’s true. Yeah, see, vending machines feel a lot like gambling, but without any upside.
Michael: [02:28] Are you alluding to the old, hit the B7 and nothing comes out?
Brad: [02:32] Yeah. Yeah, and it’s weird. It seems like it’s always B7. That’s the item you need, and when you press the B7, nothing comes out. It just kind of stares at you.
Michael: [02:39] Again, going back to your food habits and how hangry you can get, that would be a crisis.
Brad: [02:47] Yes.
Michael: [02:47] And I think if you’ve learned that, if that’s happened to you once, it probably ended your relationship with the vending machines.
Brad: [02:53] One time too many.
Michael: [02:54] Yes, but Brad, we have talked about vending machines before.
Brad: [02:58] Oh, yeah.
Michael: [02:59] In a prior episode, remember, we discussed that even the CIA has vending machines.
Brad: [03:04] Yes. The most secretive organization in the world still needs hot dogs at 11:30 PM. And let’s not forget a moment of silence, Michael, for our good friend, Sprinkles Cupcakes in Dallas, where they used to have a cupcake vending machine.
Michael: [03:20] Ooh, I have used that vending machine before. That’s a good one. Rest in peace.
Brad: [03:27] Right. Well, it was a true tragedy for my kids, because they’re like gourmet frosting, dispensable mechanical machine, a kid’s dream, right? Which actually brings us to today’s topic with a vending machine. In Bozeman, Montana, a butcher shop has installed a 24/7 meat vending machine. Ladies and gentlemen, Meat Me at Midnight.
Michael: [03:50] Oh, man. That’s so painful. Audience, now you know what I deal with.
Brad: [03:54] You can now buy, Michael, bacon, sausage, fresh cut steaks from a vending machine at any hour. Truly the American dream. Let’s picture this. You’re out on a camp out. It’s 1:00 AM. You’re at Montana. Your stomach is calling, possibly too loudly, and suddenly you realize, “I need a rib eye immediately.”
Michael: [04:14] It’s pretty fascinating. I don’t think I’ve ever craved a steak at some time of night that I needed to go purchase one and then cook it up.
Brad: [04:24] Well, you have to rethink life then, but to be clear, audience members, the machine is refrigerated, so the steaks don’t flop around next to some Funyuns and bags of potato chips, which I think is also a very important clarification.
Michael: [04:39] Yeah, I wasn’t picturing it being in a slot next to all the snacks. I did picture refrigeration, but I’m glad you confirmed that.
Brad: [04:45] Yes. And according to the owner of this meat vending machine, it’s not replacing the butcher. It’s just there for butcher emergencies.
Michael: [04:54] It’s not an AI robot.
Brad: [04:56] Not an AI robot. That’s right. Michael, I have questions you might know. What happens when someone presses B7 and their steak does not drop? Do you think they can shake the machine until that T-bone makes it out?
Michael: [05:08] Well, I’ve always been told it’s a criminal implication if you shake the machine. I would think it’s even a higher risk if you do so for a steak vending machine.
Brad: [05:18] Probably. It’s a good point. So let’s wrap this all up right now. What we’ve learned today, if you want a hot dog in the middle of the night from a vending machine, you no longer have to sneak into the CIA vending machine. You just have to be near Bozeman, Montana.
Michael: [05:35] I think all of us are a little bit dumber for this conversation, Brad.
Brad: [05:39] You’re welcome.
Michael: [05:40] I think we should get into it.
Brad: [05:41] All right. Well, Michael, today’s story is a good one, inspired by a real client. Again, names changed, dignity preserved, therapy bills avoided.
Michael: [05:50] I do not think your dignity has been preserved after your dad joke you just dropped, and I definitely will need therapy to recover from your meat me at midnight statement.
Brad: [06:00] That was handcrafted
Michael: [06:02] Yes
Brad: [06:03] Spectacular. I know people right now out there are just smiling and laughing, so let me introduce you to our first candidate today, Dr. Montana. And of course, not his real name, but a very cool name though, right?
Michael: [06:18] Very original. Yeah, and I guess I’m glad you didn’t go with Dr. Meat.
Brad: [06:24] Yes, I did not go with Dr. Meat. All right, well, Dr. Montana, he’s an eye doctor, a solid clinician, built a practice from the ground up, formed it about a decade ago.
Michael: [06:35] So far so good.
Brad: [06:36] All right.
Michael: [06:36] Okay.
Brad: [06:37] Dr. Montana hired a corporate attorney to get the practice up and running, got the operating agreement, paid, again, a real lawyer, real money, not ChatGPT or LegalZoom.
Michael: [06:47] Yeah, probably ChatGPT didn’t exist, but I follow you. Ahead of about 70% of the population.
Brad: [06:53] Fair. And then he told me, “Brad, I was all buttoned up. I had my operating agreement in place. I had spent some time. I felt really confident where we were from a practice perspective.”
Michael: [07:04] Feels like a dangerous word when you say you used confident.
Brad: [07:08] It’s fair. It’s like you can see in the future there, Michael. So 10-plus years after he had formed the entity, the business is humming along. Dr. Montana has an opportunity to bring on another doctor. We’ll call this one Dr. Vendor. Now Dr. Vendor was talented, brought a lot of new energy, and more importantly for Dr. Montana, saw a lot of good growth opportunities by having Dr. Vendor join the practice.
Michael: [07:32] Okay. I see you’re naming our people after today’s opening discussion, Dr. Vendor.
Brad: [07:38] Yes, that’s correct. You’re catching on very good. And because Dr. Montana already did the hard work years ago, when he decided to bring on Dr. Vendor as an owner, he just assumed his operating agreement was solid, so he just added Dr. Vendor as a new owner, and it was just plug and play from there.
Michael: [07:56] You use that word assumed. You know what that means, right? Makes an “Ass” out of “U” and “Me”.
Brad: [08:02] I heard that rumor before. Yeah, now, at first, Michael, believe it or not, things are great.
Michael: [08:08] Yeah, they always are.
Brad: [08:09] Everyone was excited. Revenue actually was up. Patient demand was climbing. Meetings as partners was very friendly. There’s a lot of alignment.
Michael: [08:19] Sounds great, but I know this is a podcast episode, so I feel like there’s going to be a until they’re not moment.
Brad: [08:26] Yeah, you might be right. Let’s see. Okay, it’s the until they’re not moment. This is when the first crack really appeared. It was about a new equipment piece. So picture this kind of conversation, audience member. Dr. Montana was ready to upgrade some of their older diagnostic equipment for the practice. And now, understand it was a bit pricey, but Dr. Vendor actually disagreed with that idea. Dr. Vendor actually was thinking to grow the practice accordingly, they actually needed another staff member first before upgrading the machine, which again, this is a normal business disagreement.
Michael: [09:00] Yeah, very normal, and if you’re going to be partners with somebody, there’s going to be times where you have to work through things. So yeah, it happens.
Brad: [09:09] Yeah, so they do what they went back and forth in this for a while, audience members, and eventually they just kind of hit an impasse. So they did the first responsible business decision where they decided, “Well, we have a disagreement. Let’s go check the operating agreement.”
Michael: [09:24] Okay. Well, yeah, I feel like you got to cue the music with that, to go check the operating agreement.
Brad: [09:29] Yes.
Michael: [09:29] I guess this is where the fun starts, huh?
Brad: [09:30] Yes. Imagine them sitting there with the music playing, having their coffee, flipping the pages, and they see language on profit distribution. All right, check. All right, good. They see language on buy-sell arrangement. Check. Good. They see language on what happens on death, disability, retirement. Great. Check, check, check. But decision-making authority is not as detailed. In fact, it just says majority vote, which they had to go look up, which means 51% for everything, and audience members, they’re 50/50 owners.
Michael: [10:00] Yeah, so there’s a lack of a decision tree on how things are going to happen. No tiebreaker, no managing member clause, no language that will help unstick the situation.
Brad: [10:17] Yes. But don’t worry, audience members, they feel comfortable what they said. So Dr. Montana’s, “So this is kind of weird, but there must be a state law that helps us decide this next step so this is not in our operating agreement.” But Michael, guess what?
Michael: [10:31] I know the answer to this because you go to state law, and usually state law is built around a framework of minimums, and so I’m guessing the plot twist is that there’s no state law to help guide this.
Brad: [10:43] Ah, he’s good, audience members. It’s like he’s looked at this before. That’s correct, Michael. There’s no governing default, no help. Now imagine every decision they have now could become an issue. Every business decision can become an issue, because Dr. Vendor would like to see this new vendor come in for supplies, but Dr. Montana said, “I’ve been using the same guy for 10 years. Why do we need a new vendor?” And it seems like every one of these decisions starts becoming more of a deadlock moment, and that’s actually, as you can imagine, when things start getting worse.
Michael: [11:15] Yeah, because they can’t break the tie.
Brad: [11:17] Right. And they unknowingly entered into what we lovingly call the ride or die operating agreement.
Michael: [11:23] Yeah, I mean, that’s our term that can exist in the right circumstances, but it’s really you’re saying, “We’re going to have this relationship be such that we will work through something.” And so in a situation like this, it’s more of a die than a ride.
Brad: [11:48] Yes. And Dr. Montana was actually frustrated. He had paid a corporate attorney good money, he thought, to have a proper operating agreement in place.
Michael: [11:56] I mean, I can see why he’s frustrated. He had the expectation that he had the agreement, but I’m not sure the corporate lawyer’s to blame here.
Brad: [12:05] Yes.
Michael: [12:06] I mean, it’s 10 years ago.
Brad: [12:06] Yeah, and I agree. I mean, his prior attorney probably didn’t do anything wrong at that formation process. Dr. Montana was the sole owner, and maybe he said he had no desire ever to add another partner, so there was no reason to go into deep mapping out decision-making capabilities when you have one person.
Michael: [12:24] Yeah, it’s normal. A business evolves, but the documents oftentimes don’t evolve with the business.
Brad: [12:33] Yeah. So Dr. Montana told me he felt like, at the end of the day, they were just roommates. Both signed this lease, but neither one of them could pick out the couch. They weren’t enemies. They weren’t malicious towards each other. In fact, they still thought they were both good physicians, but they were just trapped in this inability to make a business decision.
Michael: [12:53] It’s a decent analogy, but not fully accurate, because they’re business married, Brad.
Brad: [12:58] Yeah, true.
Michael: [12:59] This is a marriage, and they didn’t…
Brad: [13:01] I’ll call him back and correct them.
Michael: [13:02] Yeah. No prenup. I think they felt the impact, it sounds like.
Brad: [13:07] Yeah.
Michael: [13:07] Well, why don’t we do this? Why don’t we go to break, and on the other side, talk about how Dr. Montana was acting using our framework that we’ve talked about for this season, and then also end with some practical takeaways for practices that are opening a practice.
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Brad: [13:58] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co‑host, Michael Byrd. Now, Michael, for those who don’t know, this season our theme is What Now? On this show, we’re really exploring what now when someone makes the decision to add a new partner.
Michael: [14:12] Yeah, so we have Dr. Montana as the star of the show. He’s your client, and before he came to know you, many years ago, when he started his practice 10 years ago, I think is what you said, he started his practice and got a corporate lawyer, did not do the LegalZoom, got things set up, and probably dangerously, he carried an expectation that he was good with his corporate structure because he did go through that route at that time. But over time, he hit that 10-year mark, and it’s time to add a partner, Dr. Vendor. And the thing that happened at that moment that became a problem is that he added Dr. Vendor kind of into the infrastructure of his current operating agreement, and that’s when we started seeing some friction points, because they realized when they didn’t agree on decision-making that they didn’t have a framework. They didn’t have an agreement in their operating agreement. They didn’t have state law. And so that’s kind of where we left off, is this friction on decision-making, and it was impacting their ability to move the practice forward.
Brad: [15:26] Yeah, and in this particular case, the first phone call I had with Dr. Montana was the fact that he had already added a doctor, and when we typically hear from a client after the fact they added a doctor or a new partner, excuse me, in this case, when they say it out loud to us, what’s the first thing we think, Michael?
Michael: [15:48] Well, if it were our red flag season from years ago, it would be ding.
Brad: [15:53] Yeah.
Michael: [15:53] But there is that kind of deep breath moment of, “Oh, no,” like, what are we about to get into?
Brad: [16:00] Yeah, it’s the oh, wah, wah.
Michael: [16:01] Yeah.
Brad: [16:01] Okay, well, and because adding a partner is not a transaction, it’s a relationship shift, I think is what the audience members really need to think about. And for Dr. Montana, he skipped the most important part of that process. We use something called the 4C conversation, which is a tool that we’ve talked about in other shows. But Michael, before we add a partner, there needs to be some type of alignment, and we believe that the 4Cs helps get the parties there. And for those who aren’t familiar with the 4Cs, can you give a brief overview of what those 4Cs are?
Michael: [16:41] Yeah. These are the four areas that we believe make or break the success of people partnering together. These are the areas where that non-alignment that we’ve just been talking about can happen in one of these four. So the first one is capital. How much money is being put in, and what are you getting out of that? Being able to work through that is so important. Compensation. Okay, well, if we’re still a medical practice and we’re working and treating patients, how are we going to get paid under a partnership model, and how is that different than distributions you might receive from being an owner, going back to that capital? So we want everyone to be on the same page as to not just the comp, but the expectations on role that goes with that. Third, control, decision-making. How are decisions going to be made, and whether it’s big, small, or anything in between, is there a framework to figure out how that’s going to happen? And then final, the final C is contingencies. This is that buy/sell language, the prenup language. What happens if death, disability, some other contingency happens? How are we going to protect the business? Do we have a framework to allow for that potential transition to happen so that you’re not stuck.
Brad: [18:11] Yeah. And audience members understand, I mean, the order Michael gave that to you is actually really critical, because think about the first two deal with cash. How much does it cost to come in? The second one is, once I do come in, how do I get paid? And so you’re not even going to move down the four Cs if those two don’t make sense. And then control is actually another very important one, because once you become an owner, what’s the decision-making capability? And finally, the last one, the what if moments, the contingency. So to me, if you’re pressure testing stuff, that’s why the way Michael explained it is really important to follow through that. So let’s get back to this story, today’s story. Dr. Montana thought he had checked all the boxes. So where did he go wrong, Michael?
Michael: [18:53] Well, probably first by thinking he just needed to check boxes for a big shift like adding a new owner. But you’ve already kind of made that point, and let’s start with control because this is where the wheels started to come off. So Dr. Montana went from being a solo owner where it really didn’t matter what the operating agreement said because it was just a deal with himself, right? And so if it required a majority vote, well guess what? He owned 100%, so-
Brad: [19:27] He won every time.
Michael: [19:27] Yeah. Yeah, I know. It was pretty straightforward. Now it’s a 50/50 ownership, and there was not this redefinition that we’ve spoken about, about how we are going to make decisions in the business.
Brad: [19:43] Yeah, and that’s the trap, audience members, that Michael was outlining is when growth happens, there adds to more friction, and more friction adds complications, and the complexity demands you to rethink your internal governance. Control should not be about the ego. It should be about operational clarity. As a reminder, the doctors liked each other. They actually thought they were both really good doctors. They got along really well. But if the question is who decides capital expenditures, hiring vendors, strategic growth initiatives, if the answer is, “Well, we’ll figure it out later,” congratulations, you have just built a deadlock.
Michael: [20:25] Yes, and then the fallback trap here is that Dr. Montana hoped that state law would be able to rescue him from the situation and be able to solve this problem, and it doesn’t. And that’s the reality is that states, the state law dealing with corporate governance doesn’t create these kind of magic tiebreaker scenarios or frameworks for decision-making, so there’s no resource there to help solve the problem.
Brad: [20:58] Right, and this is where doctors need to start acting like a Navy SEAL because if you’re growing a practice, control is a pretty big element as you add in more decision-makers. So start figuring out, going back to the word you used earlier, Michael, decision tree, like clearly delegating out duties for different people. Then more importantly, start documenting. Sometimes that’s in your operating agreement. Sometimes that can mean other policies and processes. And that’s going to allow you to be scalable to some degree in the sense that you now have these things outlined ahead. So giving you some examples, audience members, do you have officers with different duties and different skills? Do you have a decision matrix that then if this happens, then this happens? Are you adding multiple people but you have weighted voting? Again, depending on the officers. These are strategic tools. Again, they’re not legal formalities, but again, they can be updated to meet that. But all we’re talking about is how do you figure out how to deal with control? And now Michael, let’s focus in areas where those physicians really need to get deeper before partnering. And adding a partner is more than just an economic decision. So for example, Michael, discuss when we talk about vision and strategy, how that impacts that big decision on the operating agreement.
Michael: [22:16] Audience, if you’re thinking, “Great, you’ve just told me here’s the problem,” and then you say, “Well, how do I solve it?” This is where we always start. You can’t figure out how to build out, in this example, control unless you know where you’re trying to go and how you’re trying to get there. So using this example of adding a partner, there is a conversation. What was the why that you brought this partner in on the first place? And how are you trying to get there? So sometimes, as an example to bring this to life, a doctor might say, “This person is going to partner with me for a little bit and then be the person to buy me out when I retire.” And so in that scenario, maybe the strategy on decision-making is something along the lines of, “Okay, we’re 50/50, but during this first segment of partnering together, for lack of a better term, we’ll say five years, me, Dr. Montana, the senior partner, will continue to make final decision-making. We’ll work through it together, but we have to have a way to break the tie. But we know that you, Dr. Vendor, are going to eventually take it over, so maybe there’s a tipping point at this five-year mark or other mark where we flip it, and now Dr. Vendor gets to make the final decision as we go into that last phase of our partnership before Dr. Vendor owns 100%.” And you can use that example to apply the vision and strategy of why you’re partnering together and the strategy to work out the solution to a problem. And mind you, sometimes solutions are hard. There are hard decisions to make. This is a good example. You can’t change the fact that there’s only two people.
Brad: [24:16] Yeah.
Michael: [24:17] And there has to be a give and take if you don’t want to get stuck.
Brad: [24:21] Yeah, and the vision and strategy, audience member, that’s going to help you when it comes to creating the operating agreement. So when it comes to making the distributions, that can be helpful from the crafting perspective because what if one of you wants to have a reinvestment philosophy while the other wants to take out as much cash as possible? And again, neither philosophy is wrong, but that’s going to actually impact the decision-making, and then all of a sudden cash now becomes a weapon instead of a resource. So those are the kind of decisions you want to start having a conversation about because depending on how distributions are being made, again, it could be a 50/50 decision. Another area that impacts control now as a leader is what type of time are you supposed to dedicate to the practice? Are you there day to day? Again, doctors, Michael, they have lots of different duties. Why don’t you talk about the different hats they could be wearing and what’s expected of them?
Michael: [25:17] Yeah, if you’re a physician owner in a medical practice, you will have the ownership hat, so that’s the 50/50. You have the hat as a treating physician oftentimes, so you are treating patients. There may be some other research or academic elements to that part of the role, but you are acting on your license. There’s a role on a day-to-day basis. And then there might be a role in terms of running the business, and that gets into the control. And you used the word earlier, clarity, and that is so important for everyone to get on the same page about what are the expectations of how we’re going to be spending our time, and who’s going to be making decisions that need to be made for the business or how we’re going to be spending our time on treating patients, et cetera. That’s where that Navy SEAL strategic mode really kicks in because now you’ve got two guys that have got each other’s back in this example and they’re working as a team.
Brad: [26:26] Yeah. So let’s get back a little bit into our story. We have these two doctors. They appear to have a lot of assumptions in the operating agreement. As you mentioned, the one thing that we can’t change or self-correct is that there’s only two of them, and they’re having these business disagreements, which is fine. It’s good to be having these honest discussions. But Michael, what happens when partners disagree? Is there a way for this to be solved either through an operating agreement or otherwise?
Michael: [26:55] Yeah, I mean, the number one way is to plan for it, and the way that tends to work best is for there to be a final decision-making process. There can be times that you could use something like dispute resolution language where you involve a third party. I personally don’t like those. Now you’re asking someone who does not have an ownership stake in the business to be a tiebreaker. And so do you really want even a trusted third party to make the decision that is, “I’m going to buy a piece of capital equipment or hire somebody”? No one’s more impacted than the people that own the business, and so it can have its place, but I think it’s dangerous. I think the bigger point is there’s no perfect solution, and you want to work through it, and there’s a lot of different tools in the toolbox that you can think through to get there.
Brad: [27:56] Yeah.
Michael: [27:57] But I’m curious, Brad, let’s talk about Dr. Montana for a moment and how he was acting in this framework. Was he acting like a pirate, a cruise director, or a Navy SEAL?
Brad: [28:08] This is where I think the cruise director analogy fits perfectly. Dr. Montana had a checklist. Entity form, check. Operating agreement completed, check. Partner added, check. But he confused structure with strategy. The cruise director energy that he brought to this is, “I checked the box, so I must be protected.” While a Navy SEAL way of thinking is going to be different. That kind of thinking is, does this structure work under pressure? Can it adapt as the mission changes? Does everyone know who’s in charge and the decision-making capabilities? And the irony is Dr. Montana was not reckless. In fact, he was not acting like a pirate, which we can talk about in a second, Michael. He was overly procedural. He was following the map. He never really questioned whether the map still matched the terrain he was under. Now, we just talked about cruise director and Navy SEAL. How would a pirate have acted, just as a hypothetical, if the pirate wanted to add a partner?
Michael: [29:09] Yeah, they would talk to the partner. They’d be really excited about it, and they would probably collaborate, ending anywhere from a handshake to going to that dreaded ChatGPT or some other quick form to memorialize it because they’re too busy, they’re going fast, and it’s going to all be great optimism. And then they potentially have an even bigger problem. But I’m curious, what happened to Dr. Montana and Dr. Vendor?
Brad: [29:43] Well, real quick because we’re almost out of time, but it took several hard conversations to remind each other why they decided to become partners and how they could trust each other again. And they progressed, but lots of misguided anger was placed on each other. But eventually, they were able to update their governance and took a lot more anguish, I think, than needed, especially for Dr. Montana, to stop acting like a cruise director and hit the pause button. And at the end of the day, I guess he wished he’d acted more like a Navy SEAL beforehand. But Michael, I’ll have you take the final thoughts today.
Michael: [30:16] Anytime there’s a change to the business, you want to act like a Navy SEAL. There’s a strategy element and a filter to how this change is going to affect the structure of your business, the operations of your business, the financial account and accounting, and even the taxes.
Brad: [30:33] Awesome. Well, audience members, we’re back again next Wednesday for the show where we continue to explore, ” I Am Ready for Compliance? What Now?”
Brad: [30:41] Thanks again for joining us today. And remember, if you liked this episode, please subscribe. Make sure to give us a five-star rating and share with your friends.
Michael: [30:49] You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website at byrdadatto.com.
Outro: [30:56] ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney-client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.
