Selling a medical practice is no longer a straightforward transaction, especially in today’s private equity–driven market. In this episode, we are joined by attorneys Jonathan Eskow and Greg Rutstein of Eskow Law Group to share what physicians can realistically expect when selling a practice today. Learn how private equity is affecting valuations, the risks of relying on few key individuals, and the continued role of non-compete agreements. Tune in for insights on navigating today’s M&A landscape while protecting the value of your practice.
Listen to the full episode using the player below, or by visiting one of the links below. Contact ByrdAdatto if you have any questions or would like to learn more.
Transcript
*The below transcript has been edited for readability.
Intro: [00:00] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real-world experiences. Creating simplicity in three, two, one.
Brad: [00:13] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd.
Michael:[00:19] As business attorneys for health care practices, we meet a lot of interesting people and learn their amazing stories. Brad, this season’s theme is the business of medicine today. Gone are the days of grandpa’s medical practice with paper charts and old-school treatments. We will confront the business and health care issues faced by the modern medical practice.
Brad: [00:43] Awesome, Michael. Well, I’m super excited to bring on our two… yes, audience members, two guests for today’s show and learn their interesting stories. However, speaking of stories, Michael, you’re going to love this one.
Michael:[00:55] Uh, that’s usually code for, “I’m about to regret this.” Um, I guess go on.
Brad: [00:59] Yes, you will probably.
Michael:[01:00] Okay.
Brad: [01:00]No, you won’t regret it. This is really cool. So I was reading this wild AP story about a guy who was running for office in Long Island, New York. This political candidate went for a night swim in the Atlantic Ocean, this past spring and never returned. He literally disappeared the past spring and never returned. That’s incredible. Michael, do you think this was the work of the mafia or perhaps a conspiracy to help move a different political agenda or candidate?
Brad: [01:25] It’s a little suspicious, so my mind is moving. I’m not sure where to go with it. I’m not much of a conspiracy theory person, though.
Michael:[01:34] I don’t know. How about you?
Brad: [01:36] I find a good conspiracy theory a lot of fun to discuss, but I don’t think I have any that I’m, like, deeply invested in. And are there any conspiracy theories that, that really grab your attention?
Michael:[01:47] Well, they’re kind of fun because all conspiracy theories have a thread that make them plausible. So, I guess in that way I find it, you know, them interesting and sometimes humorous. The ones that make me laugh the most, though, are the ones where dead people are still alive, you know, like Elvis or Tupac.
Brad: [02:06] Well everyone knows Elvis is still alive. That’s not a conspiracy. That’s actually factual.
Michael:[02:11] Yeah. Well, I’ve seen him in Vegas a lot.
Brad: [02:14] Yeah, I know. Me too.
Michael:[02:15] But I also saw in Vegas, with you, where Tupac was shot.
Brad: [02:20] That’s true. Okay.
Brad: [02:22] Getting dark, dude
Michael:[02:22] Or did he get shot there?
Brad: [02:24] I don’t know.
Michael:[02:24] Yeah, I don’t know. Well, our guests today are on the East Coast. Maybe they know what happened with the political candidate who went for a late-night swim.
Brad: [02:34] Yeah.
Michael:[02:34] In fact, one of them was a collegiate swimmer, so maybe that gives them some other unique insight to this situation.
Brad: [02:42] Let’s find out by bringing them on, Michael.
Michael:[02:44] Okay. All right. We have some friends joining us today. We have Jonathan Eskow and Greg Rutstein, with Eskow Law Group. I’ll give quick stats. So Jon is the founder of Eskow Law Group. Prior to founding Eskow Law Group, Jonathan worked as an attorney at Saul Ewing and also co-founded an enterprise software company. Having grown up in a family of dentists, Jonathan has a unique understanding of the business and practical needs of his dentist, doctor clients and DSO, MSO clients. Jonathan earned his undergrad from Brandeis University and his law degree from Cardozo School of Law. He resides in Brookline, Massachusetts with his wife, three kids, and dog. They enjoy their time in Vermont, especially during ski season. And as we know, and if anybody that’s on video can see, he is a diehard Boston Red Sox fan and overall sports junkie. Greg is the head of corporate health care for Eskow Law Group.
Michael:[04:00] He worked in the financial services sector with a focus on M&A and investment management practice areas. He spent time at Bridgewater Associates and FRM, which is a division of Man Group. He worked as an associate in big law at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher and Milbank. Again, corporate law and M&A transactions. Greg earned his undergraduate degree, degree from Binghamton University Law School, New York Law School. And he’s deeply involved in community, coaches his son’s baseball teams, active board member of Impact, which is a Connecticut-based charity focused on serving underprivileged children, and has even served as the, as a planning and zoning commissioner for the town of Westport, Connecticut. Last and certainly not least, he’s an avid golfer and enjoys teaching his daughter how to play. Both are national speakers. We’ve shared the stage with them and have collaborated many times together on helping clients through the M&A process. And they’re both first-time guests on our podcast. Welcome.
Jonathan: [05:08] Thanks for having us, gentlemen. We’re excited to be here. Thanks, guys.
Brad: [05:11] Yeah, awesome. Now we’re going to jump in with some very hard-hitting questions right away. Do you guys have any special insight into the theories of this political candidate who disappeared?
Jonathan: [05:22] I mean, I was thinking… I mean you mentioned I swam in college. Like, maybe he was just going for a long exercise, right? Maybe he’s trying to do the swimming across the pond.
Brad: [05:34] Mm-hmm.
Jonathan: [05:34] Right? You know, so maybe it’s just purely, you know, recreational. You know, I always, like, maybe he just went to the Cayman Islands, right, and decided to disappear for a little while and just, you know, took a little sailboat down to the Caribbean and he’s, he’s going off the grid. Hope nothing bad happened to him. I mean, we’re kind of, you know, we’re joking, right? Hopefully he’s okay.
Brad: [05:53] Yeah.
Jonathan: [05:53] Hopefully he’s okay. You know, I always, I always find these disappearance stories interesting. You know, I feel like once in a hundred or once in a thousand, they end up being that the person just, like, created their own disappearance. And so I think that’s kind of what we’re, what we’re getting at here. But hopefully, hopefully Greg and I can keep ourselves in line and make sure that we don’t have to create our own disappearance.
Michael:[06:19] All right. Well love for the two of you to each take a turn introducing yourselves, supplementing whatever, you know, my read of your bio that I was able to track down. Uh, just love for our audience to, that, that doesn’t know you guys to, to get to know you a little bit.
Jonathan: [06:41] Yeah. Happy to do so. I will say that I can almost guarantee that the people that are tuning in did not tune in to hear even more about Greg and myself. Right? So we will be very conscious of getting to the crux and getting to the meat of this conversation, because that’s what everyone wants to hear.
Jonathan: [06:59] I think the best thing… And you guys did an amazing job kind of giving the full background, so we’re definitely… I don’t want to repeat any of that. I, I think for us, what I’ll say is, is that as people, as humans, like we try to keep the humanity in what we do. We try to keep the practicality in what we do. I think a lot of times as lawyers, you know, you can get stuck into the weeds and you can get… It can become very, like, like see deal, do deal, almost like in, like a factory with clients as widgets.
Jonathan: [07:30] And I think both Greg and I, just from a personality standpoint, and Eric, our other partner, you know, I think from a personality standpoint and from just a philosophical standpoint, I think we really just like to keep the humanity, like to keep the practicality in things, and, and just like to really make it clear that, you know, our clients are, are people who are going through really big, important, and impactful professional stages of their development. We want to support them and meet them where they are.
Greg: [07:59] Yeah. And I’ll just add, you know, very quickly off that, you know, you guys heard my background before, and it was mostly largely dealing with really, really big transactions, oftentimes billion-dollar transactions with, you know, tons and tons of people involved. And what I’m doing these days, you know, at Eskow Law Group and, and working, you know, occasionally with you guys, is just helping, you know, a doctor or two or three or, you know, a group of doctors sell their, you know, their, their prized possession, their lifelong work. And, you know, you become a little bit of of a therapist in the meantime/lawyer. And I, I just really love what we do. So, to sort of second what John said, and that kind of brings it to life.
Brad: [08:39] Awesome. Well, we can echo. It’s a lot of things that we do here too. But one, one of the things you guys, you know, just diving into the, your law group, ta-talk to us about, you know, tell us about the, the group. I know you mentioned your other partner, but, like, where are y’all, what do y’all do, and what do y’all specialize in?
Jonathan: [08:54] Yeah. I mean, look, it was just like with a lot of businesses, it kind of was started because there was a vision of doing something differently, right?
Jonathan: [09:03] Like I was, you know, I was at a big law firm. I left that big law firm and started a software company, right? And those are almost like two polar opposites in terms of, of kind of the bureaucracy and, and just structure of how big law is set up, right? And then you go to, like, kind of the proverbial, like doing a startup in your garage, right, and trying to, to make it work and, and, and scrapping. And so I tried to bring the two of those things together with Eskow Law Group, right? Trying to keep the quality and sophistication of the big law firm, the training, the competence, um, the expertise, but taking a lot of the lessons I learned in the startup, right, in terms of, of the ability to be more nimble, the ability to meet our clients where they are, the ability to be more, um, focused on, on communication and transparency in how we do things, um, and taking, like, a passion, a lifelong passion of, of health care. And that ultimately led to starting Eskow Law Group, right?
Jonathan: [10:04] We are just like you guys, like we are exclusively focused in health care. Um, that’s all we do day in and day out. Um, and our primary focus and, and really the, the real brunt of what we do is mergers and acquisitions. So to say it more plainly, it’s helping doctors who are either buying medical practices, selling medical practices, buying into or partnering with medical practices, and really helping them, as, as Greg mentioned, helping kind of just regular people achieve their, their goals and their visions and their dreams, and so we started with nothing, right? The firm’s been around for a little over ten years at this point, and we on an annual basis do about a hundred and fifty kind of medical transitions, right, either buying, selling, partnering, that really run the gamut. We take great pride in being able to do kind of the smallest, simplest deals, but also, like, the biggest, most complex deals, right? It’s not unique for us to, at the same time as we’re doing –
Jonathan: [11:10] Maybe a little ten or twenty thousand dollar merger, to also be working on a fifty, hundred, two hundred, five hundred million dollar, like, platform transaction, right? And so one of the things that we take a lot of pride in with our firm is the ability to really work with any of our medical, health care, doctor clients, right? No matter how big or how small, no matter whether they’re in the, you know, Pacific Northwest or the Southeastern United States, just kind of really spanning the globe both geographically but also in terms of the types of deals that, that we work on. And, and frankly, that has given us, I think, a real unique ability to be market experts, right? I always question how someone can be a market expert if they don’t see, like, all sides of something, right? If they only focus on one type of deal and one type of geography, how can you really be a market expert, right? Because you’re not seeing the full picture and understanding the full picture.
Jonathan: [12:11] And I think that’s one of the things that we’ve been able to accomplish.
Michael:[12:17] Rightfully so. Awesome. Well we’ll, get into one of our questions. So our theme, as you’ve probably heard at the beginning for this season, is the business of medicine today. And so I gotta give a little context because y’all probably know this, even though you’re being nice not saying it, but Brad’s really old.
Brad: [12:35] What?
Michael:[12:36] And you know, we… I mean, Brad grew up in a world where doctor sales were old school hospital acquisitions. And the landscape for medical practices has changed quite a bit, even in the last 10 years or so. Our firms are about the same age. So I’d love your perspective on how the rise of private equity has kind of changed the landscape for, you know, physicians kind of compared to this more old school way it used to go.
Greg: [13:10] Yeah, I can take this one. I think, look, it’s just, you know, it’s another player in the market, right? And a big player at that, and, and a growing player. And, like, more specifically, you know, there’s more optionality when it comes time for a physician or group practice to think about exiting or partnering, right? Who do you go to? It’s not just other doctors or hospitals, it’s potentially a, you know, private equity-backed management company. And that platform can offer oftentimes a higher valuation for the practice. Oftentimes that’s as a result of not only just offering cash, but offering equity in that private equity platform as part of the compensation for the purchase. So again, valuations tend to be larger, you know, when you’re looking at other players in the market, including private equity. There’s arguably a more efficient job market for both doctors, nurses, and support staff because, you know, if you have a physician or two physicians that own a practice, they may have someone on staff, you know, like a, um, you know, practice manager or something like that that’s responsible for all back office things, including hiring and firing.
Greg: [14:21] But if you affiliate with a private equity management company, they may have a full team of HR, you know, experts that are solely dedicated to finding the right doctors, nurses, and support staff. So I think the job market becomes a lot more efficient, to say the least. And then, you know, what we’ve heard anecdotally is that, you know, oftentimes the platform, the PE platform can offer better pricing in terms of supplies and inventory, potentially better reimbursement rates on insurance, depending on the structure of, you know, how the, the post-closing clinical entity is set up. So again, it’s just overall, I guess, higher valuations and more efficiencies in the market. I’m explaining obviously all the great things about it.
Greg: [15:10] You know, you hear sometimes a story or two here and there where, you know, private equity is in it to make money, of course, right? And so it’s not… You know, we do, both firms and other firms like ours do a great job of, you know, keeping that separation, making sure you’re, you know, having all documents and everything interacting between the management company and that clinical entity separate in terms of clinical entity being responsible for the clinical aspects of the practice. But private equity is in it to make money, and so they’re going to, you know, look to sort of cut costs where the costs don’t make sense look to increase profits where it makes sense to do so. And some doctors and/or support staff may get rubbed, sort of a different way when that’s happening as compared to traditional just doctor-owned practices. So it depends on the perspective. But overall, I think we’re hearing great things, and we don’t hear much from our clients post-closing, and we take that as no news is good news.
Michael:[16:10] I’m curious too. I’m thinking about, you know, this landscape and how it’s changed. And one of the things I’ve faced, I know Brad has as well a couple of times, is in our normal, you know, practice where the doctor’s going to bring on a young associate to become a partner that there are new expectations, high expectations, perhaps sometimes even unrealistic expectations about what the value of the practice is because of what they’re hearing is happening in the market. Have y’all experienced that, where you see doctors are perhaps having even more unrealistic expectations just because of the buzz of what’s happening with the private equity world?
Jonathan: [16:56] Yeah. Um, no question. It’s actually one of the things that I, like, wish wasn’t a byproduct of private equity getting as involved. I think that one of the things that has really happened is private equity has realized, not incorrectly, right, that they don’t necessarily have to go to a broker, right, to then buy someone’s medical practice. They can go directly to the doctor, right? And, and also they’ve recognized that doctors are willing to reach out directly to them. And so what that’s done is it’s created this, like, marketing frenzy, right? Um, and on top of that, there’s really not a lot of differentiation under the hood from group to group. And I know all the different groups out there are probably kind of just going to jump through their screen and say, “No, we’re different or better because of X, Y, and Z,” or, “We’re…” You know, “We are totally different than all the other competitors.” And, like-… maybe different groups have slightly different things, but under the hood, right.
Jonathan: [18:13] Greg talked about kind of… Like, private equity is structured and set up, right, the same way across the board, right? And so I think what that has done is it’s all… as more and more players have gotten involved, right, and more and more private equity groups have been successful within health care, it’s also created more of a marketing frenzy for, like, them and these groups to try to differentiate themselves. And so what that’s done is created this… You mentioned buzz and I think it’s like buzz plus, right? ‘Cause buzz sometimes, to me, when I think of buzz, it’s like doctors in the industry kind of just sitting around the water cooler talking about what they’re hearing. Like, to me, this is, like, directly being driven by the private equity groups, right, through marketing, and they’re saying, “Hey, you know, we’ll pay you, you know, these massive amounts of money,” right?
Michael:[19:08] Mm-hmm.
Jonathan: [19:08] Like, “Hey, if you’re a practice, a medical practice that has, you know, last year had revenues of two million dollars, like, we have bought similar business for four million dollars.” And people are like, “Holy crap. Like, that’s unbelievable. I gotta call these people right now,” right? The problem is that that’s just… Like, there’s a lot more than meets the eye right, when it comes to those valuations?
Jonathan: [19:31] There’s a lot more even than just a profit and loss statement, right? It’s, you know, how old are you? How long are you willing to commit to the business? What do your trends look like? Where are you geographically, right? One of the things we see a lot of is, which is super interesting, and I think this is, like, a newer… it’s definitely a newer trend, I would say, in terms of how private equity looks at deals, is, like, key man risk, right? Like, I think what happened early on, or not early on, but, like, let’s say five years ago, eight years ago, ten years ago, when private equity really started to get involved in different health care verticals, is that they were, like, excited about these really well-performing practices, right? They bought these well-performing practices. And then, like, five years later, these doctors who were, like, carrying a huge percentage of the production of the business retired or left, and they found it really, really hard to maintain that production.
Jonathan: [20:27] And so now what we’re seeing a lot of is, like, even businesses that are super high-performing, right, if there’s not, like multiple doctors or, like, a succession plan with, like, younger doctor associates, like, private equity groups don’t really want to touch them right because of the key man risk.
Jonathan: [20:47] So I think things are continuing to evolve, right? Very much so. And I think we’re seeing a lot of different things. And so I think, yeah, there’s… we see a lot of stuff about, you know, super high valuations. You know, we’ll get into it maybe a little bit later, but I, think what, what is important to understand is that with every super high valuation, right, comes strings, right? Strings in terms of how long you are committing to stay on. Strings in terms of, you know, what your non-compete looks like. Strings in terms of not all of your purchase price is paid in cash, right? So there’s a lot of different components to, like, the buzz around, “Oh my God, X, Y, Z, you know, group is willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money.”
Brad: [21:32] Well, you just mentioned something I think that would be something that docs or anybody listening to this show would, or would be interested in. You said non-competes. And I know that, uh, there’s a lot of language out there, “Oh, my state doesn’t allow non-competes,” or anything else. Why don’t you talk about what happens with a physician and whether or not they would have non-competes if they sell their practice?
Jonathan: [21:56] Yeah. So it’s, it’s a little bit of a multifaceted answer. And so let’s kind of, um, let’s split the universe into, to three categories.
Brad: [22:04] Okay.
Jonathan: [22:04] Right? So you have, like, associate doctors, like non-owner doctors who are just employees, right? And then that’s one thing we’ll talk about. Then you’ve got kind of you guys call them main street deals, so like a doctor selling to another doctor or partnering with another doctor. We’ll talk about that. And then the third situation I’ll talk about is, like, a private equity transition, okay? So I think on a very macro level, there was a lot of noise in the industry last year and the year before around kind of the Federal Trade Commission coming up with this ban, this, like, nationwide ban on non-competes, okay? We’re kind of past that. They never ended up actually really enacting it.
Brad: [22:47] Right.
Jonathan: [22:47] Never went into effect, right? And so from a, a national standpoint, right, non-competes are very… they’re alive and well, right? They really push it down to each state, right? And each state does have different regulations, right? There’s a lot of states that still very much are, you know, enable non-competes from an employer-employee standpoint. But there are certain states you know, California always jumps out as, like, the most obvious and biggest, but there’s plenty of others right?
Brad: [23:16] Yeah.
Jonathan: [23:17] Where non-competes in an employer-employer relationship are not, um, you know, not possible. In, in which case then a lot of the focus turns into, you know, restrictions on soliciting, um, and, and disparagement, et cetera.
Brad: [23:33] Right.
Jonathan: [23:33] So that’s the employer-employee kind of scenario. Um, anyone who kind of comes out and says non-competes, you know, are unenforceable, it’s, it’s not, it’s not really true on across the board standpoint.
Brad: [23:46] Right.
Jonathan: [23:46] When it comes to kind of a main… if you’re buying or selling with, like, another doctor, right, those non-competes are typically much more enforceable because a lot of the statewide bans on non-compete really just focus on an employer-employee relationship. They don’t apply necessarily if you are buying or selling or partnering in a business, right? And so you can have a non-compete… in those types of transactions and those types of relationships. And typically, it would start, you know, when the deal closes, last for a period of time, two, three, four, five years, and have, like, a geographic radius in terms of distance. Also kind of relatively simple and structured. The most complicated scenario when it comes to non-competes is in the, in the context of a private equity transaction. And the reason for that is because there are multiple components, typically, of a private equity transaction. What I mean by that is you have the sale of the business, right? You have the requirement that you stay and work after closing for a period of time.
Jonathan: [24:59] And then most of the time, you have, like an equity or a partnership-type relationship with the private equity company, right? Each of those different relationships can justify a non-compete. And so in that scenario, you may actually end up with three different non-competes, right? A non-compete that’s tied to your employment, if your state allows it, a non-compete that’s tied to the sale of your business, right, and a non-compete that’s tied to your, your equity interest, um, your partnership interest with the private equity company. And that can be pretty confusing for people to understand, like, “Wait a minute, like, why do I have all these non-competes? What does that mean?” And it really comes to what is reasonable from a non-compete standpoint in terms of length of time and the geographic radius is really dependent on that relationship. And so you may have a smaller non-compete for the employment, right, and your non-compete for the sale of the practice or the business may be much bigger, and that’s okay.
Jonathan: [26:01] It’s just because with the sale of a business, it can justify, you know, in the eyes of the law you know a bigger restrictive and non-compete.
Michael:[26:12] Yeah. So I’ve got a speed round question here. I’m going to put Greg on the hot seat.
Brad: [26:18] Ooh.
Michael:[26:21] Greg, if you had to say, you know what’s the number one concern that a buyer has when acquiring a medical practice?
Greg: [26:31] Yeah. I think John probably touched a little bit on a few different ones, but you know, kind of one main one that we’ve seen pop up over the last couple of years specifically is this concept of key man risk. You know, as John said, traditionally buyers are, you know, see successful practice, “Hey, it’s a great doctor. Let’s buy the practice for a big multiple.” Now they’re learning the hard way that the doctor sold because they don’t not want to be working forever, and then, you know, who’s going to replace that doctor? So, you know, fool me once, you know, shame on me, fool me twice the other way around. You know what I mean?
Michael:[27:08] Yeah.
Greg: [27:08] So basically, they’re not going to… I wouldn’t say they’re not going to, but they will take into consideration in the pricing whether there’s a main producer or two main producers. And tying into what John said about the non-compete, if there’s a big producer and then there’s, like, three or four smaller producers, they’re going to want those smaller producers to sign a non-compete in connection with the closing of the transaction, because they want to solidify that production. So the reverse way to look at it is if there’s a well-diversified production pool at the practice, the practice is probably going to command a much larger, valuation because it’s key man-proof. So I think key man risk is, is one of the key components, I would say, is if you had to pick one.
Michael:[27:51] Amazing. Guys, our time flew by. It was fun as always with you. I appreciate you both joining us for Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. We’ll go to break and perhaps have a quick little wrap-up after the commercial. We appreciate it. Thank you, guys.
Greg: [28:09] Thank you.
00:28:09 Jonathan
Jonathan: [28:09] Thank you.
00:28:10
Access+: [28:10]Many business owners use legal counsel as a last resort rather than as a proactive tool that can further their success. Why? For most, it’s the fear of unknown legal costs. ByrdAdatto’s Access+ program makes it possible for you to get the ongoing legal assistance you need for one predictable monthly fee that gives you unlimited phone and email access to the legal team, so you can receive feedback on legal concerns as they arise. Access+, a smarter, simpler way to access legal services. Find out more. Visit byrdadatto.com today.
Brad: [28:45] Well, welcome back to the Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd. And as Michael said, this season our theme is the business of medicine today. We had just an amazing conversation, Michael, with John and Greg, really talking about the ever-changing landscape of M&A and the demand it’s having on the medical industry right now. But do you have any good, quick takeaways?
Michael:[29:05] Well, my main is that if you enjoyed this, you know, kind of short conversation, we’ll actually be on stage together in April at the Medical Spa Show with Eskow Law Group for a full-day, at the M&A summit. And, so if you really want to dive in come join us there. We’ll be also there with our friends at Skytale.
Brad: [29:26] Yeah. It’ll be a good time. But audience members, that’s all the time we have today. We’ll be back next Wednesday when we continue to try to understand the business of medicine today when we bring on Sam Pondrom to discuss peptides.
Brad: [29:37] Thanks again for joining us today. And remember, if you liked this episode, please subscribe, make sure to give us a five-star rating, and share with your friends.
Michael: [29:46] You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website at byrdadatto.com.
Outro: [29:52] ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney-client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.
