When patients want to record their medical consultations, where does convenience end and legal risk begin? In this episode, hosts Brad and Michael share the story of a plastic surgeon caught off guard when a new patient insisted on using an AI assistant to record their consult. What starts as an awkward moment quickly raises bigger questions about consent laws, practice policies, privacy, and patient expectations. Tune in to learn how state recording laws intersect with internal practice rules, why “legal” does not always mean “allowed,” and what health care practices should consider before recordings become part of everyday care. Discover how you can protect your practice and maintain patient trust in an increasingly AI-driven world.
Listen to the full episode using the player below, or by visiting one of the links below. Contact ByrdAdatto if you have any questions or would like to learn more.
Transcript
*The below transcript has been edited for readability.
Intro: [00:01] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real-world experiences, creating simplicity in three, two, one.
Brad: [00:13] Welcome back to another episode of the Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd.
Michael: [00:20] As business attorneys for health care practices, we meet a lot of interesting people and learn their amazing stories. Brad, this season’s theme is The Business of Medicine Today. Gone are the days of grandpa’s medical practice with paper charts and old-school treatments. We will confront the business and health care issues faced by the modern medical practice this season.
Brad: [00:42] Awesome. Now, Michael, as our audience members know, you play a lot of tennis, and for the longest time, I thought love in tennis means that everyone adores me.
Michael: [00:52] Brad, this makes total sense. You as a Labrador, interpret anything, and I mean anything, as a sign that everyone adores you. If I said, “Bad dog” to you right now, I think you would start wagging your tail.
Brad: [01:09] Oh, because you noticed me.
Michael: [01:11] Yes, but for the record, love means zero.
Brad: [01:14] Okay. Well, Michael, you know, you’re practically, like a pro. I mean, you play in a league. You got all this match play that you do year-round. You’re like the Roger Federer of health care law, minus the trophies, endorsements, and, well, talent.
Michael: [01:29] I’m not sure I even understand exactly what you just said, but it definitely sounds like you were trying to make a cut-down.
Brad: [01:36] I’ll let the audience figure that one out, but speaking of tennis, did you hear about this French player who was banned for 20 years for match fixing? Yes, 20 years. That’s longer than actually some people might go to jail for murder.
Michael: [01:50] I did see that. The International Tennis Integrity Agency, or the ITIA, as they say on the street or in the tennis community, hit him with 27 charges: bribery, shady deals, even tried to throw investigators off the trail.
Brad: [02:06] Wow, the International Tennis Integrity Agency, I had no idea that it existed. Makes you wonder, Michael, have you ever thrown a match for money? I mean, you play in all these leagues. Is there a secret underground tennis mafia paying you to double fault?
Michael: [02:22] I know you’re joking, Brad, but you actually just hit a super-hot topic in professional tennis right now. Because, I mean, you’ve seen all these… I don’t know if it’s, Kalshi or something like that.
Brad: [02:35] Yeah.
Michael: [02:35] But there’s these betting sites that will allow you to bet on specific things happening on a specific point in a match, like, “I bet, X, that that person’s going to double fault right now.”
Michael: [02:49] And so the risk, as you might imagine, for players cheating to get a result and actually getting away with it, has gone through the roof. And you’re seeing this show up in baseball with pitchers getting in trouble for throwing a ball instead of a strike, and they are alleging cheating. But with professional tennis players, kind of what compounds this whole betting thing is that they’re all basically independent contractors. It’s just them, and so, you know, they have their own social media accounts. They manage them, and so there’s the numbers have gone through the roof on the number of death threats, stalkers, that they’re getting, you know through DMs, on their social media, because these people are mad that these players lost them money on the betting. So, I think, as, back to your original question, no, Brad, betting has not made its way into the local competitive leagues, so I think I’m safe from any temptation that someone’s going to bet on my specific points.
Brad: [04:01] Yeah, all I heard is you’re saying there’s a chance there. But seriously, folks, this story is pretty wild. I mean, a 20-year suspension, $70,000 in fine. I mean, by the time he’s allowed back in, he’ll be 44, and that’s not a comeback. That’s like a retirement party for him.
Michael: [04:17] Well, I don’t know. Venus Williams is 46, and she’s playing in the Australian Open in a few weeks, so there’s a chance, as you said. There’s a chance. Well, this is a good reminder that integrity matters, whether you’re on the court, in the boardroom, or in the courtroom. So, Brad, let’s jump into today’s story.
Brad: [04:36] Okay, now, Michael, how are you feeling today, and more importantly, did you remember your hearing aid, or do I just need to speak up for you today?
Michael: [04:44] Well, I know you’re making an age reference, but you actually, you know, touched a nerve because I probably do need hearing aids for, like, the last five years, but I’m holding firm. So, if I can’t hear you, then, you know, just forgive me. But you’re also my age, Brad and you also have similar hearing ability, so don’t try to trick the audience into thinking that you’re the young and spry one.
Brad: [05:10] Okay. Well, speaking of listening devices, I’m going to tell you a story that one of our clients recently had to address at her practice.
Michael: [05:19] Okay. Well, that’s good, Brad, because our focus is the business of medicine today. Do you remember that?
Brad: [05:25] No, I didn’t.
Michael: [05:26] Okay.
Brad: [05:26] But that’s a good point.
Michael: [05:27] All right.
Brad: [05:27] All right, I’m going to set the scene. Dr. Roger, a plastic surgeon, she’s wrapping up a busy morning at her practice, and we’ll call the practice the International Plastic Surgery and Cosmetic Practice. She just finished a consultation with a patient who actually brought her homemade banana bread, so you can know that she’s the favorite for most of her patients. And next up is Mr. Frenchie, a new patient who is coming in for his first consultation.
Michael: [05:54] Okay, well, I think we’ve used Roger Federer before in a past episode, but because it’s Roger Federer, I approve. You can always talk about tennis, and we can have Roger back again after this.
Brad: [06:06] Yeah.
Michael: [06:06] And I’m guessing Mr. Frenchie is our, our guy that’s been banned for 20 years. Or an ode to that person.
Brad: [06:15] Yes.
Michael: [06:16] All right. And you touched on something. You touched on the consult, and this is, this is common in all medical practices, but in plastic surgery, you know, there’s kind of an added element to it because, you know, you have the medical part of it, which is, you know, kind of making sure you’re aligned. But you’re also… you know, they’re choosing to get a surgery they don’t need most of the time, and so there is a definite sales element of, you know, vetting and for mutually vetting and then finding alignment and then, you know, being able to, quote, “close the deal” if you find that alignment. And so, you know, so far, this all sounds super normal, including the homemade banana bread.
Brad: [07:05] Yes. Now, Dr. Roger greets Mr. Frenchie with her usual warmth: “Welcome, Mr. Frenchie. What brings you here today?” Mr. Frenchie smiles, sets his phone on the table and says, “I hope you don’t mind, Doc. My AI assistant is going to record our conversation so I can remember everything you said. It helps me keep track of my health.”
Michael: [07:25] And I’m guessing that’s when the temperature in the room dropped a few degrees?
Brad: [07:29] Exactly. Dr. Roger freezes for a moment. She kind, right? She doesn’t want to offend Mr. Frenchie, but inside, she’s nervous. She’s been thinking, you know, “What if something that gets taken out of context? What if the recording ends up online? What if my advice is misunderstood?” So, she’s just glancing at this phone, wondering, “Is it already listening?”
Michael: [07:50] Yeah, and I mean, this is one of the areas where AI is definitely here. Kind of think of it as, you know, note-taking. And so, we’re finding more and more, we’re having conversations with our plastic surgeon clients in particular, where this is showing up in some form or fashion, whether they have some sort of, you know, recording that’s an AI note-taker audio-wise, or even Zoom consults, where they want to record the Zoom and get the video. And so, you know, it’s, you know, to the average person out there, this is becoming more and more mainstream as an idea of, “I want to record.”
Brad: [08:32] Yeah, or they bring their friend who has a video camera and tries to videotape the whole thing. So going back to our story, Dr. Roger tries to keep her voice steady. She’s obviously a little thrown off by this. “Mr. Frenchie,” she says to him, “I understand you want to remember our conversation, but our practice has a policy against recording it. It’s to protect your privacy and mine.”
Michael: [08:54] Okay, well, we’ve spoke to many practices who have not thought about it and get caught flat-footed when something like this happens. So, the practice, they do have a written policy?
Brad: [09:10] No, but it was kind of an unwritten rule in the office.
Michael: [09:14] In other words, they had faced some version of this situation and before, and decided informally that they did not want to allow it.
Brad: [09:22] Yep, you nailed it. Now, Mr. Frenchie was surprised. He stated, “Oh, I didn’t realize. I just wanted to make sure I didn’t forget anything important. I’m not trying to get anyone in trouble. I just want to remember any documentation prohibiting me from recording it.” I mean, I’m sorry, “I don’t remember signing any documentation prohibiting me from recording it.”
Michael: [09:41] Yeah, I mean, to my point earlier, I mean, the thing that goes with the prevalence of it, this becoming more mainstream, is the expectations that our practices will face, or I’m sure this practice faced, that, hey, I mean, this is not an outlandish request. This is a super normal, reasonable request in the patient’s eyes. And, I mean, you know, we talked about there’s a sales element. That doesn’t really set the sales element up very well, to be able to close this deal when you have that, that fracture.
Brad: [10:19] So Dr. Roger feels torn. She doesn’t want to make Mr. Frenchie feel unwelcome, but she’s also worried about the risks. She remembers stories about her colleagues whose words were twisted or the viral videos that were then posted later and she’s seen how quickly things can spiral out of control.
Michael: [10:37] Yeah, so Dr. Roger’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. These are super reasonable thoughts. I mean, again, this is medical, and this is a private conversation. I can totally understand that, and that goes up against this expectation I just spoke about. I mean, she wants to help her patient, but she has to figure out how to protect herself and her staff.
Brad: [11:00] Yep. So, she tries to explain, “It’s, it’s not about you, Mr. Frenchie. It’s about making sure everyone feels safe. Sometimes recordings can be misunderstood, and I just want to make sure our conversation stays confidential.”
Michael: [11:12] Okay, that sounds, you know, like a reasonable swing at a good communication on why for it.
Brad: [11:19] Sure, and Mr. Frenchie unfortunately he- well, he hesitates and says, “I get it, Doc, but I’m having trouble remembering details. This AI helps me keep track.” You know, Dr. Roger feels this anguish. She doesn’t really want to lose the patient; she offers a compromise: “How about I write down the key points for you? That way, you’ll have a record of it, and you’ll be able to feel comfortable that we covered everything I discussed.”
Michael: [11:44] One thing I’m observing is they’re having a very healthy conversation. They’re acknowledging each other’s position, and they haven’t gotten there yet, it doesn’t seem.
Brad: [11:54] Maybe, we should hold off on that statement. Now, Mr. Frenchie disagrees with, with her compromise. He explained that he has recorded all his other doctors, and they have never had a problem with it. He further elaborated that he was disappointed that they had any pushback, and the only reason why he even told Dr. Roger was out of courtesy, because he didn’t have to even let her know.
Michael: [12:17] Well, that turned it up a little bit. So, can I retract my statement?
Brad: [12:21] Well, it’s, it’s out there forever.
Michael: [12:23] Well, you know, up to that point, and then it took a little bit of turn. And there’s a lot to unpack there.
Brad: [12:28] Yeah.
Michael: [12:29] There’s the question of whether they could have recorded if they wanted, and the question of: could Dr. Roger have done something more formal to prevent this in the first place? So how did Dr. Roger respond?
Brad: [12:44] Well, Dr. Roger feels guilty. She’s wondering if she’s done the right thing. She’s worried about the review Mr. Frenchie might leave. She worries about her reputation, about her staff, and the trust that she’s built with her other patients, and just in the community at large.
Michael: [12:58] So what does Dr. Roger do next?
Brad: [13:00] She calls ByrdAdatto.
Michael: [13:02] Oh, all right. Well, go, Dr. Roger. Let’s go to break, and let’s come back with some legal insights and learn what happened next at the practice.
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Brad: [13:50] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto. I’m with my co-host, Michael Byrd. And Michael, this season, for those who don’t know, our theme is The Practice of Medicine Today. Now, can you give us a recap of what just happened?
Michael: [14:04] We have the International Plastic Surgery and Cosmetic Practice. I’m guessing it’s an ode to our little tennis, regulating body but well done, Brad. And we have Dr. Roger, and she’s a plastic surgeon, the owner of this practice, and then we’ve got Mr. Frenchie. And all of the story centers around Mr. Frenchie’s desire at the consult, at the practice, to want to record. And so it never got ugly-ugly, but it went from very healthy communication at the beginning, you know, this kind of disconnect of the practice wanting to protect themselves, and the patient having an expectation that they want an AI note-taker, for lack of a better word, by recording. And so, it did start turning a little bit heated towards the end, to the point that Dr. Roger called ByrdAdatto, and presumably she made the mistake of calling you.
Brad: [15:10] I don’t know. I couldn’t hear her. I didn’t have my hearing aid in okay so maybe she called me. Yeah, so yeah, before we jump back and analyze today’s story, Michael, I think the question, you know, we want to address first is: Can patients record their doctors’ conversations?
Michael: [15:25] You just asked this so I could give the best lawyer answer, right?
Brad: [15:29] Yeah.
Michael: [15:30] It depends. Now can I just drop the mic and walk away?
Brad: [15:34] I guess you could try, but it’s on a stand.
Michael: [15:37] Can I just tear the mic off the table and throw it to the ground?
Brad: [15:40] You probably could, but I think Cameron would be upset with you.
Michael: [15:42] Okay. All right.
Brad: [15:43] Yes, shocking answer, but let’s go a little bit further into this analysis. Let’s spend some time on why it depends, and I know your answer really was focused on the core difference in the consent laws. Now, audience members, consent laws fall into really two different categories, certain states. So, category one, if the state has a one-party consent state, or category two, it’s a two-party or also known as an all-party consent state. And so, Michael, going back to you, maybe you can first talk about what does it mean to be a one-party consent state?
Michael: [16:12] Yeah. So, a one-party consent state means that if you’re in that state, you can record a conversation as long as you’re part of it and consent to the recording. So, you know, I couldn’t plant a recording device for a conversation between you and Cameron, but I could, in a one-party state, could record a conversation between you and me if I consent to my own recording of it.
Brad: [16:38] You have to I guess consent yourself.
Michael: [16:39] Yes, exactly. So, examples of where you might see this in federal law is a one-party law, Texas, importantly, New York, Michigan, other examples. But Brad, why don’t you talk about, you know, what is it if you’re in a two-party consent state?
Brad: [16:59] Right. So two-party, or sometimes called an all-party consent state, means everyone who’s participating in a private conversation must consent before the recording. So, we can jump to other states, such as California, and jump to the other coast, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Washington. So, all these states, meaning that if you’re in the room in the recording and one person does not consent, it’s not allowed. So, understand the consequences, though, if you’re secretly recording these and you haven’t gotten this consent, this actually can, in these states, lead to criminal charges, including fines and jail time, and civil lawsuits.
Michael: [17:36] Well, that’s a pretty spicy risk.
Brad: [17:41] Yeah.
Michael: [17:41] Okay, well does this, Brad, does that mean that in a one-party state, that there is no requirement to consent, going back to Mr. Frenchie’s?
Brad: [17:50] Correct, yes. However, you know, it is best practices, even in one-party states, to at least announce the recording to avoid any questions or issues down the road. And, to complicate matters, some states have, mixed rules, so I won’t go too down far down this rabbit hole, Michael, but there are different sets of rules if it’s in person versus over the phone versus electronic, for recording. So, for example, if I’m seated in Texas and I call someone in another state, and I decide to record them, I’m allowed to do that because Texas law applies. So, it gets really sticky real quick.
Michael: [18:31] Yeah. Okay, well, we’ll stay above that.
Brad: [18:34] Okay.
Michael: [18:34] All right. Let’s get back to the story. So, Dr. Rogers’ anxiety is real, as we’ve talked about. And in Texas, it is a one-party consent state as we mentioned. So Mr. Frenchie can legally record the, the consult without telling Dr. Rogeras long as he’s a participant. But importantly, Brad, that doesn’t mean Dr. Roger can’t set boundaries.
Brad: [18:59] Yeah, that’s correct. So, the practice can and should have a policy that prohibits recording by patients and employees. This policy should be clear, fair, and communicated to everyone. But here’s the catch: even with this policy, the law still allows Mr. Frenchie to record it if he’s part of a conversation. So, the policy is more of setting those expectations with your patients and your employees, and understanding what you’re trying to do is obviously protect privacy, and maybe, you know, from any type of legal enforcement type of issues.
Michael: [19:32] Yeah, and, you know, Dr. Roger gets the choice of whether to accept someone as a patient that doesn’t follow these clear rules. But it’s, so important that you notify the patients and the employees, you put up signs in the waiting room, exam rooms, include the policy in patient intake forms, in the employee handbook. It’s really a communication thing as much as anything, that you’re setting expectations on what the practice policy is as it relates to recording. And so that they know the rules before the conversation starts.
Brad: [20:07] Yeah, exactly. And from the perspective of, like, where do I even start? If you even have a recording policy, make sure at least the very minimum, if you are building one, it covers a couple things. Who? Who is prohibited from recording? So that could be your patients, that could be your employees, that could be the visitor who’s with the patient or employee. So again, the policy should want to address that. What? What are the types of recorded conversations that are allowed or not allowed? So,we’ve talked about audio, but there could be video, it could be photographs, it could be certain devices. So again, AI devices are very common now, so that’s another thing it needs to address. Are there exceptions? Are there certain times when you might give them a written authorization from the management, or if so, who has the ability to approve that? Is that the employees, is that the owners, is that the doctor themselves? So again, those are the exceptions you want to start focusing in on. And then this is a policy, right? But what is the consequences if violating it? Now, that makes sense with probably. Maybe it’s hard with your patients, like, “I won’t treat you,” but with an employee, you know, there may be disciplinary issues, which are different, which is going back to you had said employee handbook ties that. And then finally, how? How are these questions, addressed, when they do have a question or concern? Do you have an FAQ that you’ve worked on with your team, so you can either talk about with your employees, or your employees can talk about with the patients?
Michael: [21:28] And we’ve even had a practice that decided that, “Okay, we’ll just embrace the recording concept, but we’re going to control that.” And so, they actually, the practice, will, you know, they’ll get the agreement of the patient, will record it, and, you know, make sure the recording is accurate, and then, will actually make it part of their medical record. And so not advocating for that, but that does work for that particular, client. But going back to your kind of the recording policy concept, you really want to make sure that enforcement of the policy is fair. You know, if you ask Mr. Frenchie to stop recording, you want to do the same thing for every patient. If you ask an employee to stop, you need to be consistent. And, so really, a policy is a starting place, but how you actually put it in practice is as important as the policy itself, or you’ll face, you know, risk of complaints and even potential legal challenges in some circumstances.
Brad: [22:37] Yeah. And you know, right now, just for audience members, remember, I mean, Dr. Roger’s story and with the patient, Mr. Frenchie, is not unique. We’ve had these conversations over the years with our clients, and it’s gone from, you know, literally taking pictures with cameras, all the way now to your phones, and then now these AI devices are everywhere. So, it is definitely becoming a growing issue, and the best defense really is to have a really good policy and great communications.
Michael: [23:06] Yeah, and we talked, we’ve touched a few times on the AI devices, and those are, you know, those are kind of hidden in nature. I mean, you’ll see some where it looks like a little pen on their, you know, on their coat or their shirt. But, you know, I mean, there is a reality that I think practices have to realize, is that, more and more people are going to be recording, and you won’t ever know it. And so, I think there’s a case to be made for how you communicate, assuming that there’s a risk that someone’s recording it, and, you know, wanting to make sure that you’re covered. And that, you know, there’s a whole conversation, Brad, in plastic surgery about, you know, if you’re, the physician, the surgeon, having someone else in the room with you so that, you know, there’s not this, you know, allegation of inappropriate touching and all that because, you know, obviously, the patient is undressed and exposed, and, you know, that can extend into this as well, the recording concept, as you do have someone else that’s in the room. And, you know, if it becomes really prevalent, which I don’t think it’s necessarily there yet, then maybe you do consider recording, on yours as the practice, so you have kind of a competing recording in that event that someone breaks the policy and has this out there.
Brad: [24:46] Yeah. And that’s a good point, and Michael, real quick on that, is we get that follow-up question all the time, which is: “Well, if the patient’s allowed to record us, am I allowed to record the patient?” And I understand that’s two areas where that comes into play. Number one, obviously, that’s a privacy policy issue, where you want to have great privacy policy, and if the patient refuses for you to video record them in that setting, you can’t. However, a lot of practices may have video cameras in their waiting rooms. They may have video cameras that oversee where the drugs are maintained, or in the old days, cash registers were where the nursing station was. That’s actually allowed because that’s a common area. So, if you’re videotaping those areas, again, for protection purposes or for tracking purposes of medication, that’s fine, but if you are bringing video into that room with a patient, then you actually would have to have their consent from that perspective.
Michael: [25:42] Great point, 100%. So, love, Brad, do you have some final thoughts?
Brad: [25:47] Yeah, so I mean, we, kind of we hit some major issues here, the major topics of AI and all the different ways, but you just have to understand that, number one, figure out what type of state are you in. Are you, like, in Texas, where one party can consent to the recording? Wait, did I consent to this recording? I don’t remember if I did.
Michael: [26:06] Well, I can see why you don’t remember… because of your age.
Brad: [26:08] This mic is right in front of me. I guess I should have consented. Okay, but, the practice, even in these one-party states, can still have these policies prohibiting it, and then, as we kind of discussed, make sure it’s really clear. Clear in the sense that it’s everywhere. they can see it when they sign in, and then to your point earlier, Michael, it’s enforced fairly. And then you want to make sure you have great communications with your patients and your employees, so again, signage, intake forms, employee handbook, policies that, is, is easy to, to attain. Again, if you have exceptions, they need to be limited, and legal, especially with, you know, everyone’s bringing all these different devices in. And obviously, no matter what, if you’re uncertain as to what you should do, obviously, reach out and consult with legal counsel, because it is a very tricky area, especially in the all-party or two-party states, where it can get messy real quickly. And the last thing I’ll add is, sometimes it’s the patients. Michael, this whole story is focused on, Mr. Frenchie but a lot of times, it’s your employees who are recording it and not even realizing they’re doing it for their own benefit, and that they’re in an all-party state or something like that. So just… I know with the story, we’re really focused on, Mr. Frenchie, but it’s not always that case. So, Michael, with our final time left, what are some final thoughts that you have?
Michael: [27:32] Yeah, I mean, I want to take it back to the application of this concept to, you know, what the story is, which is the consult, and there’s a lot of ways, I think, practically, for our practices to think about this. So, you know, we led with this idea that, you know, there is a protective nature to: do we need to set some boundaries? There is a risk that comes with a patient recording it. I mean, the patient has that recording. What do they do with it? Do they, you know, make changes to it, and you have no way of knowing, you know, if this has been tampered with, and then they hold this out as something that is a, quote, “official record.” So, the risk is real, and then you have this competing idea of this being a sale, and, I don’t want to…you know, we’re not selling lemonade, in a lemonade stand. I’m not saying it that way. I mean, you are truly, you know, vetting each other, making sure as a physician that this patient is a great candidate, and the patient is making sure that you, as the surgeon, you know, have the skill set that they trust you to be able to do this. But at the end of the day, even if you find that alignment, you know, the patient, may be intending to interview multiple plastic surgeons, and there is an element of, can you close when you get to that point? And so that’s, with that friction, I’m just saying this back again to recognize that our clients all have different risk profiles. And if you’re kind of a risk-taker and really more focused on closing the deal, you know, my tap the brake is there is a real risk here. I mean, you have to recognize that, you know, if you don’t create some policies and enforce them, that you may face that moment where you have a, you know, a, quote, “record” of a recording that you don’t agree with. It’s a, maybe a transcript or whatever. The flip side is that for those who are highly protective, and maybe Dr. Roger falls into that camp, I don’t know, but, that, you’re so wired that you end up not, you know, sacrificing closing your patients, that you need to realize there’s a real impact to your business if you go too far in protecting yourself, from patient risk, that you may drive the very thing you need to be the lifeblood of your business away.
Brad: [30:21] Well, all great points, Michael, and next Wednesday, we’ll continue understanding The Practice of Medicine Today. We bring on series regular and our partner, Jay Reyero, to come and discuss: can med spas offer a refer-a-friend program?
Brad: [30:34] Thanks again for joining us today, and remember, if you liked this episode, please subscribe, make sure to give us a five-star rating, and share with your friends.
Michael: [30:43] You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website at byrdadatto.com
Outro: [30:49] ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an attorney-client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.
