In this episode, Brad and Michael, and guest Jay Reyero, share the story of a plastic surgeon’s journey to sell his practice, with hopes of slowing down and focusing on surgery for the last part of his career. While he found multiple interested buyers, only one met his expectations. However, delays and funding issues led to a postponed closing date, raising concerns about the deal’s future. Tune in to learn how to navigate unexpected delays, manage shifting expectations during a sale, and recognize when it is time to walk away.
Listen to the full episode using the player below, or by visiting one of the links below. Contact ByrdAdatto if you have any questions or would like to learn more.
Transcript
*The below transcript has been edited for readability.
Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. Legal issues simplified through real client stories and real world experiences, creating simplicity in 3, 2, 1.
Brad: Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. I’m your host, Brad Adatto, my co-host, Michael Byrd.
Michael: Thanks, Brad. As a business and health care law firm, we meet a lot of interesting people and learned their amazing stories. This season, we are entering the fancy season of a business. Our theme this season is Buying and Selling a Business.
Brad: Oh, wow, Michael, that’s really interesting. And as I recall, there’s more seasons.
Michael: Yes. It’s so funny you asked me that. I feel like we’ve done that every episode for a long time. Let’s refresh quickly. We have the building season, when you’re starting a business; the operating season, when you’re running a business; the scaling season when you’re growing a business, and now we are in the buying and selling season. [00:01:00].
Brad: Well said and for those watching us from TV land, you’ll notice it’s not just these two gorgeous faces. We have brought in series regular and our partner Jay Reyero.
Jay: Alright, let’s go, Brad. What do you got for us today?
Brad: Well, gentlemen, I don’t know. Do you guys like documentaries?
Jay: I will say yes. I love documentaries, but I’ll have to ask why are you asking?
Michael: Yeah, I also object because you’re just trying any door you can get through to get to movie talk and so, objection noted, and yes, I do like documentaries.
Brad: Okay. I’m not sure about this ruling you just came up with, so I’m just going to ignore it. But I recently re-watched the ESPN “30 for 30” documentary called Broke. It’s about the financial challenges professional athletes face during their careers, and most importantly, after their career is over. It was really eye-opening.
Jay: I know, I’ve seen that. It may have been a few years since I last saw it but [00:02:00] I do remember it talking a lot about how quickly the fortune’s change of certain athletes.
Michael: It’s on my Netflix watch list because Brad and I had a side conversation recently, and he’s like, “You’ve got to watch it.” And so it’s on my list, but I haven’t seen it yet.
Brad: All right. For those that don’t know, the documentary mentioned that 60% of athletes go broke within five – yes, I said that right, five years of retirement. It’s just shocking.
Jay: Spoiler alert, Brad. Come on. You just heard it from Michael.
Brad: Oh, sorry. Oh, my bad.
Jay: I do remember that stat. I mean, that was crazy to think about it, but I remember the documentary doing a real good job of going to the psychology behind why that stat was and how these athletes really kind of struggled to adjust to their normal life after this life of luxury when they were an athlete.
Michael: I haven’t seen it, but who would possibly make a wise money decision in their twenties? I mean, I can still remember my college decision to get a credit card so that I could build my credit.
Brad: [00:03:00] Yeah, I’m sure like most college students who built their credit by actually building up debt which actually leads us right back into broke. They interviewed several retired stars who were just brutally honest about what their experience was.
Jay: Yeah. And I remember the things that were essentially draining their bank accounts were crazy to hear. You had the bad investments, the freeloaders, medical issues, and then just the plane showing off – who needs two cars and a tiger?
Brad: I mean, who does? And speaking of those freeloaders, there was a quote from Andre ‘Bad Moon’ Rison, for those that don’t know that. I found it very powerful, he said something to the effect that he didn’t even know when he was getting paid. However, all his friends who were on the payroll, they knew when payday was and the number of “friends” on the payroll just kept growing.
Jay: Yeah and I think, I mean, you saw kind of how that captured the mindset of these athletes and I mean, they weren’t prepared for the financial realities of life when they are not an athlete. [00:04:00]
Brad: Yeah. Another quote that stood out was when Bernie Kosar, who was a quarterback, stuck with me, he said something like, “I was just going to go play football, but I always thought someone else was trying to take care of the other stuff, basically.”
Jay: Yeah. And the biggest takeaway, and what I’ve heard since then, since that came out so many years ago, was that financial education is the crucial part, especially for these young athletes that are coming into large sums of money for the first time in their lives.
Michael: I’m actually surprised that I wasn’t interviewed for this. I blew through all of my professional typing money in no time. I mean, I would’ve been perfect.
Brad: That’s a tough one for you, Michael. I mean, I heard from my parents that back in your day, 10 cents went much further. It’s kind of like your typing wins. The documentary really drove home the point that even if you make 10 cents in your day, or millions of dollars this day, it doesn’t really guarantee you’ll stay at 10 cents or a millionaire with these other guys.
Jay: Yeah. But it did a really good job showing how this was really a complex issue, but the whole awareness piece really is a good place to start. [00:05:00]
Brad: Yeah. And I’m glad we could discuss this because it’s definitely given me a lot to think about when I turn pro next year.
Michael: Yeah. Fair. Yeah. Once that shoulder heals up, you’ll be ready to roll. Well, I’m not sure where we’re going, much like at the end of all these conversations, we’re not sure where we’re actually headed with this. I’m sure you’ve got some sort of tie in to the story itself.
Jay: Yeah, I’ll have to give Brad credit. I think it’s a pretty, pretty witty tie in here, so, we’ll get to the story. Today’s main character is going to be Dr. McGuire, who is a plastic surgeon out west. His story starts when he starts exploring opportunities for the sale of his plastic surgery practice.
Brad: And I’m assuming by Dr. McGuire, you’re saying his first name was Jerry, which I like, you’re leaning into the sports talk that we had at the beginning of this. And that reminds me of Jerry McGuire, the movie where the actual agent – we actually talked about Jerry McGuire in a different episode earlier that – well, actually several years ago now – but when Matthew Vukovich was on, [00:06:00] who’s actually a sports agent, I think they worked for today’s show, so I’m going to allow it. What was the motivation for the sale?
Jay: Yeah, so he wasn’t close to retirement, but as they say, he was on the back nine. And at this point in his career, he was really interested in finding a partner to kind of take over the administrative operations just so he could be focused on surgery. That’s what he wanted it to be. He wanted to be a surgeon. But it also would give him that exit strategy for when he was ready to walk away. And here’s the thing, there wasn’t an immediate need. So one of the most important things that when we talked to him about kind of this decision to sell was, he had to make sure the numbers made sense. He had a very specific number in mind.
Michael: Well, so this is a common scenario. Tell me, what type of opportunities did he find?
Jay: I mean, he had several, I mean, there were no shortage of opportunities. I mean, Dr. McGuire’s practice was reputable, it was thriving. There were numerous interested buyers. The problem was [00:07:00] that during the preliminary discussions with him, none of them really communicated that guarantee or that ability that they felt that they were going to be able to meet his number and get him what he was looking for.
Brad: Is that because he, he had developed such like a super successful practice? Or was he really just asking for amount that was outside of the actual value of what he gets for his practice?
Jay: Probably mostly the latter. I mean, again, with no requirement to sell, it’s free for him whether he sells or not. He had a specific number in mind, and that was his walkaway number. And we all have a walkaway number I guess, but it’s probably not something that anybody’s going to pay for today. And for him, that was the case he was finding out.
Michael: We found commonly with our doctors that they kind of land on one of two extremes when they think about their view of what their practice is worth. [00:08:00] You have those on one end of the spectrum that probably needs some therapy because they don’t think their practice is worth anything. It’s, “I’m just treating my patients and I’ve just got the charts.” Then you got the other end of the spectrum, which probably also needs some therapy where they think it’s worth way more than it is. And so hopefully, since this is the beginning of the story, I’m assuming that he eventually found a buyer and we’re not just going to talk about therapy the rest of the time; that would be a little off brand of our podcast if we went into a counseling session.
Jay: Yeah. He found a buyer and found $5 at the end. Let’s just walk away.
Brad: That was a really short! So, Kennedy, how about you like find a way to slow down our speech patterns and see if you could kind of drag it out for another, like 22 minutes. Is that right?
Jay: All right, don’t panic, Brad. Don’t make Kennedy do all that work. There is more here. So this is where our other character in the story is going to come in. because Michael, you’re right. [00:09:00] Eventually a large group came to the table and indicated their ability to match what Dr. McGuire was looking for. And we’re going to call this character the Redbird Group.
Brad: Jay, I like the connection to the Arizona Cardinals, aka, Redbirds, again, movie reference, “Jerry McGuire.” I approve. So what happened next?
Jay: Yeah. So Redbird Group indicated, “Hey, yeah, we can meet your number.” So the next few months, both parties spent time in those discussions that are very important, making sure fit and visions aligned, and that they could be true partners after the sale. Through this process, they did, they found it was a great fit. And so they proceeded to go ahead and formalize that offer into a letter of intent. And here was where Dr. McGuire really, really wanted it to be in writing. He wanted to see a commitment to meet that expected number because that was so important to him.
Michael: What’s interesting on the letter of intent, which we end up talking about almost every [00:10:00] episode because as we say, it sets the tone for an entire M&A deal, is that on the financial terms, they can vary so much in how they’re structured. Some will go ahead and say a price, like, here’s the number – or maybe not. They did this for our client in this story. Sometimes they’ll just use a formula and say “TBD, it’s going to be x multiples of a formula EBITDA.” If we want to go to the old earnings before interest taxes and depreciation formula that we’ve defined before.
Brad: That does sound very sophisticated and fancy at the same time.
Michael: It is fancy and the caveat is usually when there’s a fixed number, there’s an asterisk that can allow for adjustment after there’s some due diligence into the numbers.
Jay: Yeah. And so knowing all this and knowing specifically Dr. McGuire’s expectation, I had this exact conversation early on and he got it. [00:11:00] He understood. Totally got it. Things can change, numbers can change. It may not be exact, but there was something to him about seeing it formalized in writing.
Michael: So were there any issues during the LOI phase?
Jay: No. Pretty standard. There were important post-closing employment type issues that we needed to address because Dr. McGuire really wanted life before closing to be the same after closing. There was a straightforward process. We were able to get the LOI signed and anticipated closing date was set about 90 days out.
Brad: So what I’m hearing is, then you moved into the due diligence phase and this is where our issue came up, right?
Jay: Nope. Again, pretty straightforward. Due diligence went along smoothly. The quality earnings was done in parallel. At about the 30 day mark, the Redbird groups counsel started sending over the initial deal docs.
Michael: My context brain is going crazy.
Brad: Well, hold on. So LOI was good, due diligence was good, now we’re moving into the definitive [00:11:00] agreement phase, so this is where maybe something else happened.
Jay: Nope. Still nothing unusual. We started to review the deal docs, pretty standards documents. We turned them back over to the Redbird Group’s counsel. Dr. McGuire was still having great conversations with all the business team with the Redbird group, and he was getting really excited that we were moving towards a targeted closing date.
Michael: I’ll footnote for all the rest who are like me, who heard the term quality of earnings and are like, what in the world is that? We’ve talked about this on multiple episodes in the past. This is that part where they’re looking at the finances to consider whether or not that number is still good, so it’s a deep dive into the numbers. and so the fact that that just went smoothly through there is making me start to get suspicious. I’m waiting for a twist.
Jay: So we returned the documents. We knew we’re about halfway to that closing date, [00:12:00] so internally we started gearing up for that sprint to the finish that’s always going to happen with the deal.
Brad: Oh man, the sprint, love it. It’s everyone’s favorite part of an M&A deal. Again, mergers and acquisitions for those paying attention. But the sprint often really is referring to that extremely intensive period of activity focused on actually getting a deal closed. This phase really is crucial for coordinating and finalizing lots of these key agreements. Your inbox gets flooded with emails and it feels like your phone is basically glued to your head.
Jay: So two weeks go by and crickets, we don’t hear anything from the Redbird Group’s counsel. When we check in with Dr. McGuire, he’s still interacting with all the business team. They’re making plans, they’re talking about the transition, issues that are going to need to be dealt with. And the Redbird Group continued to tell him everything was expected to close on time, but we got nothing back from the Redbird Group’s counsel. [00:14:00]
Brad: You know, as we all know, math is not my strong suit because I don’t like doing it. But aren’t you about 30 days out from closing at this point?
Jay: Brad, I’m glad you had your calculator handy this time. Yes, about 30 days out. But the amount of things that needed to get done, raise the red flags, sound the alarm bells. It was really alarming. And so, we had to have this tough conversation with Dr. McGuire that this targeted closing date was in really serious jeopardy.
Michael: Yeah and closing dates do move from time to time. Everybody at the beginning fixates on that closing date. And going back to the setting of expectations, expectations get locked in. Despite our advice, a lot of time vacations are planned, sometimes before the actual closing day, but if not the day after. And so, you have a lot of – people kind [00:15:00] of locked in, and the buy side is they’re really wanting to push forward as well. They’re trying to typically get it, get it closed, and keep everybody accountable. They don’t want any of the attorneys or other professionals involved to be the cause of this thing not going to close, and so I am curious how that discussion went.
Jay: Yeah, not good as you can imagine. I mean, here we are talking to Dr. McGuire, telling him, “Look, it’s quiet on our end. There’s a lot left to do. That targeted closing date is likely not going to happen.” And yet he’s having conversations with the Redbird Group’s business team who’s saying, “Oh no, everything’s working. We’ve got it. We’re going to close on time, don’t worry about it.” We finally came to the decision, we need an all hands call with all the teams, everyone involved to be able to iron this out and make [00:16:00] sure we’re all on the same page rather than playing telephone.
Brad: And for context, it’s, Michael does love that. In an M&A deal when the “all hands on call,” when they say that they want one of those; that really brings together all those key decision makers that Jay was just kind of describing, along with their counsel, which is really important. And really at that point, that call is to focus on providing the platform for the parties to share the vital updates about the deal, including addressing any lingering concerns. And typically, this can hopefully lead to the insights that you need to actually close a deal. So how did that all hands call go?
Jay: Actually, you can imagine even worse.
Brad: Oh, no.
Jay: During the call, we finally were informed by the business team that the reason that there was a delay was the Redbird group had four active deals going along with ours. And unfortunately, their funding could only cover the acquisition for three [00:17:00] of the deals. So three out of the five, two of them are left out in the cold. And so as you can guess, Dr. McGuire’s deal was not one of the three that were going to be covered by the funding.
Michael: I’ve seen this show before. We have seen kind of various levels of buyers pursuing a deal, and behind the scenes they are scrambling like crazy, working on their funding sources at the same time.
Jay: Yeah, and at the same time during the call, Dr. McGuire was being assured by the Redbird Groups team that they were still committed to buying the practice, they still envision a great partnership, but more importantly, they let us know that they had lined up additional funding, it was going to close maybe in the next 30 days. That would easily allow them to get this deal done. So basically a little bit of a delay, but don’t worry, we’re still committed, we’re going to do.
Brad: This and did it.
Jay: You know, as you’re wandering in the desert and you see this pool of water [00:18:00] in the distance – let’s just say we wandered towards a new closing date.
Brad: Yeah. That’s not good.
Michael: No, no. I feel like we’re ending on a down point, but I think we need a commercial break. So let’s go to commercial and come back and talk about strategies to deal with the slow responding buyer. I’m curious to hear what happened with Dr. McGuire.
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Brad: [00:20:00] Welcome back to Legal 123s with ByrdAdatto. [00:19:00] I’m your host, Brad Adatto, with my co-host, Michael Byrd, and series regular, Jay Reyero. Now Michael, this season, for those who don’t know, our theme is Buying and Selling a Business, and we’re talking about these stories that happened to our clients and sometimes good, sometimes bad. Now, Michael, Jay was just kind of talking to us about Jerry or sometimes called Dr. McGuire and his story about wandering off into the desert. Maybe you can kind of give a summary for those who are listening.
Michael: Sure, quick recap. Well, I don’t want to bury the lead. We got through 20 minutes almost, and we have not heard Brad scream “Show me the money”, and this is a gift to everyone, including our audience.
Brad: The podcast ain’t over yet…
Michael: Oh, okay. Well, no, I’m pulling back the trophy I was about to give you and holding it.
Brad: It is a trophy you won’t receive.
Michael: Okay. So our story centers around Dr. McGuire, and Dr. McGuire was a plastic surgeon on the final [00:20:00] stages of his career, looking to slow down, looking for an exit type scenario, and hoping to focus on operating for the last part of his career and not the business side. He had a number in mind that was his number for the value of his business, was shopping around, found somebody, the Redbird Group who was ready to meet the number, and all seemingly went really well until it didn’t, because crickets, the buyer started slowing the roll down. And so, that’s kind of where we left off, where we had this all hands call that didn’t go well and kind of got the bomb dropped that there was only so much money and he was just outside the line of where that money was. But don’t worry, he was only going to be closing 30 days later than expected. [00:21:00] Brad, we’ve talked about the importance of sellers doing their due diligence on a buyer. Talk a little bit more about that.
Brad: Yeah. You know, the second show of this season, the Buying and Selling season, we spent a lot of time really discussing why it’s so important for you to know who’s actually buying your business.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. And so, Jay, in Dr. McGuire’s case, there was a moving closing day driven by the Redbird Group’s, lack of funding, and so this can have a, obviously a real impact. Talk a little bit more about that.
Jay: Yeah, I mean, it has an impact on both parties, but particularly from a seller’s perspective, one of the biggest headaches that they run into is this struggle of working towards a new way of life. They’re about to sell their practice and they’re looking at what post-closing life is going to be. But at the same time, they’re still running a business and there’s still decisions to be made. There’s still things that come up. And so, also we go back to the LOI, it’s not binding, [0022:00] you don’t have to do the deal. There’s no guarantee the deal’s going to close. And so you’re living in this world of, I’m planning for the future, but at the same time dealing with the present. And as you start moving those closing dates, things start coming up that maybe you didn’t anticipate. Maybe that lease that needs to be renewed comes up. How do you make that decision? You have an opportunity that presents itself because you’re still running a business, still networking. What do you do for that knowing that, “Well, I got to sell it, or I’m going to sell this business, or this is an opportunity I can’t give up, and if the deal doesn’t go through, I’m going to lose this opportunity.” So it creates a real big hurdles for sellers and buyers. They can be affected on the same way in that the business is changing as from what they originally thought they were going to get as the time moves on. And so these big opportunities, big decisions start coming up and we play in this world of uncertainty of the deal closing that creates a lot of friction.
Brad: Yeah, I agree. And the seller, they can become really [00:23:00] distracted during this time because they’re only thinking about closing the deal and not really focused on running that practice. And staying focused is critical and crucial for a medical practice to remain profitable during this timeframe, which means maintaining their focus on their core elements, which got them there. What made them so attractive to that buyer in that very first place. Like, so staying focused on your scheduling and your revenue cycle management and cost controls and marketing, everything you were already doing. Meaning like, just because you’re in an LOI doesn’t mean you can let your foot off the pedal.
Michael: Yeah. And thinking of some practical strategies, all of which we’ve touched on at different points, but the starting point is being super strategic about when you announce this to your team, because anyone that knows this information, is going to be distracted in some way, either emotionally because they’re thinking about it or they know about it and they have some roles that are working towards the deal itself that are taking them away from the day job, which is continuing to be productive. [00:24:00] For the surgeons themselves. It’s becomes really important to make sure they stay disciplined on their surgery schedule and keep the production running and having a plan to deal with the very real requests for their time that are going to come with being in a deal like this, so it may be just some time management planning that would go into this. Jay talk about Dr. McGuire’s story, how did it end? I’m afraid to ask you if they did show him the money.
Jay: Well, unlike my last story, this one ended as you probably all expected. The deal just quietly kind of died as that closing date kept getting pushed and then magically tied to some future event that was really not under our control. We were promised after that all hands call, that 30 day period came and, oh, well, our funding is actually going to close in [00:25:00] another 30 days. Pretty soon it just ended up, we didn’t even get updates. More importantly what happened; mentally and emotionally, Dr. McGuire was just spent and eventually just decided, you know what, I’m going to move on. This isn’t worth my time. If you go back to the beginning, they didn’t have a requirement to sell, and so he decided just to pivot strategies and look in a different direction, like adding a partner.
Brad: Yeah. And I know we’ve talked about this in other shows also. Unfortunately, deal fatigue is a real thing. It’s common in M&A arrangements, particularly for the seller. It refers really to the mental and emotional exhaustion that can occur during, often these lengthy and complex process of selling a practice. Again, this is the first time someone has probably ever done something like this in their life. And so fatigue can have the significant impact on the seller and potentially effect of the outcome of the actual deal sometimes. The seller wants to just get it over with. They just don’t care anymore. They don’t even care about the end result. [00:26:00]
Jay: Yeah. And this is one of the things that in the very beginning with a client, I have a conversation with them of, this is a real possibility, and really expressing what a targeted closing date means, and that it is meant to move because sometimes they think, “Oh, it’s a set date, it’s going to close on this date.” And helping them have the expectation that., “No, it’s a movable target. Here are some reasons why we will do everything to move towards that target, but they’re going to be outside factors, outside forces, third parties that could cause issues to push it.” And look, even if the Redbird Group had found the funding and could actually move towards a closing and said, “Hey, we got the money, let’s go.” The impact of that experience that Dr. McGuire had, would’ve had a really great impact because would’ve caused us to look back at the financials. If a lot of money is put in on the back end, we just dealt with the Redbird group who couldn’t find funding on the front end. So what does that say about the likelihood of the back end? [00:27:00] And that then starts coming into, is this really the deal that I’m looking for? Is this the deal that’s worth it? Is the dollar in the future really as valuable as I thought it was? And so, these very different terms could being offered by the Redbird Group could potentially have changed the nature of the deal and the risk tolerance that Dr. McGuire had and said, you know what, this isn’t the deal that I thought it was based on what my experience has been.
Michael: Access to capital is an under-discussed and under evaluated thing that the seller looks at for the buyer. So the buyer comes in and they present and they’re very polished, and they may even say the right things about access to capital. But we’ve seen a lot of extreme scenarios. I mean, we have seen deals with startup buyers where they go to secure LOIs, to then go shop the LOIs to find investors to raise the capital. [00:28:00] And so the sellers are staring at their beautiful LOI, having expectations and trips they’re dreaming about, counting their money, and they have no idea the buyer’s juggling trying to raise capital to fund the deal, and it feels like a shell game almost. So access to capital is a common issue even for some of the more established buyers. I mean, we’ve seen that in years, like 2024, where the interest rates went up because a portion of their access can be bank funding that can only be unlocked when certain performance benchmarks are being met, or investor money that may have their own benchmarks that allow capital to be unlocked.
Brad: Yeah. Poor Dr. McGuire, sound like he got the slow no from the Redbird Group. But Jay, I don’t know if you have any final thoughts.
Jay: Yeah, I mean, I think final thoughts, again, this is an entire process that when I talk with a client, I make sure that they understand all the realities and all the things that can and can’t happen, setting the expectations. [00:29:00] And this is no different that there are certain expectations you have to have going in, but that things can change and you have to expect it – expect the unexpected. But fortunately for Dr. McGuire, he didn’t have the need to sell, so he was able to make a good decision to go ahead and pivot strategies and not have a bad outcome in the end.
Brad: Yeah, that’s a good point, Jay. It’s like, when you have these long pauses that happens in a deal, a party that’s willing to sell on their terms will be able to weather the storm, and more importantly, walk away. And unfortunately, many sellers realized that after they sold that, all that uncertainty and stress and anxiety, they weren’t prioritizing why they were trying to sell in the first place. They just want to get the deal done. Again, deal fatigue that we talked about earlier. As such, maintaining that current ownership might be better for that seller and they might have a better outcome down the road. And so again, we’ve talked about this in other shows, the ability to say no and walk away can be very powerful for the seller. [00:30:00] Michael, your final thoughts.
Michael: If you find yourself in the middle of negotiations for a deal, I encourage you to channel your inner Rod Tidwell and make sure you keep performing while the negotiations are happening.
Brad: Now, I like that you’ve ended the movie with a reference to Jerry McGuire and the “Show me the money, show me the money.” Okay, Michael, next Wednesday, the two of us will focus on what it might say in a prequel of an M&A process when we talk about the especially important process of getting your house in order before you go to market. Thanks again for joining us today, and remember, if you like this episode, please subscribe, make sure to give us a five star rating and share with your friends.
Michael: You can also sign up for the ByrdAdatto newsletter by going to our website at byrdadatto.com.
Intro: ByrdAdatto is providing this podcast as a public service. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast does not constitute legal advice, nor does it establish an [00:31:00] attorney-client relationship. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by ByrdAdatto. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Please consult with an attorney on your legal issues.
